General "Fair Use" FYI

[Lawrence]

Not suggesting copyright infringment here but for those who don't know....

In-stream video "copy protection" can be easily defeated (for fair use) by using a SIMA GoDVD "enhancer" hardware device. I ordered one from B&H Photo for $69 (CT-2). By putting this unit in between your cable/satellite box and your video input card the copy protection embedded in the signal is stripped away before it hits your MCE PC or hardware DVD recorder. It has RCA and SVideo I/O.

For me this means that I'll be able to burn anything I record using MCE to dvd to watch in another room or to archive later when my drive fills up. This has been nagging me as a lot of my recorded movies are copy protected and MCE won't allow me to burn DVD's of them.

Too late for those movies but the future is looking good. :D This should also help stop the occasional HBO "Protected Content" irritation.

This will also allow all of my recorded MCE programs to be loaded and edited by VideoRedo. Trimming away those extra few minutes of credits and music and ads at the end of a recorded movie saves disk space.

Lawrence

[Anole]

By putting this unit in between your cable/satellite box and your video input card the copy protection embedded in the signal is stripped away before it hits your MCE PC or hardware DVD recorder.
It has RCA and SVideo I/O.

Probably a Macrovision remover.
I've had a similar product for years.
Mine has only RCA in/out.
I put it in front of my VCR, because I couldn't play DVDs through it, much less record them.
Now days, I don't even use a VCR, and gave away my little box to a friend.
It never occurred to me they were still of any use. ;)

Thanks for the reminder!

[Lester Burnham]

Probably a Macrovision remover.
I've had a similar product for years.
Mine has only RCA in/out.
I put it in front of my VCR, because I couldn't play DVDs through it, much less record them.
Now days, I don't even use a VCR, and gave away my little box to a friend.
It never occurred to me they were still of any use. ;)

Thanks for the reminder!

Macrovision is still very alive and well.

Digital satellite providers often use it on pay-per-view films and events.

And I'd say most commercial DVDs include it.

In fact, if the rumour mill is to be believed, they were behind the demise of DVDdecrypter.

Personally, it's not much of an issue for me - I have a couple of DVD players that ignore / strip it, plus I all the stuff that I want to capture from digital satellite doesn't include it. (Note: it's implemented differently on DVD, compared with VCR - on video tape, it was included in the signal on the tape, on DVD, it's a flag in the mpeg, that (most) DVD players honour and send out with the signal).

Interestingly, the PMPs I've had (Goodmans GPDR40, replaced with Archos AV440) both honour macrovision - the Goodmans (from memory - I've not had it for some time) I don't think would record if macrovision was detected, my Archos will record, but "protect" the file it creates, so that it can only be played back on the unit and it's LCD (ie can't be played if you copy it off the unit - never tested that, and won't display if you get the AV440 to output to an external display (ie TV)). However, I nearly always convert from source to put video on my PMP, rather than use it to record directly.

[Lawrence]

Macrovision is still very alive and well.

Digital satellite providers often use it on pay-per-view films and events.



Tell me about it. I had ordered a PPV fight and I had to bypass my MCE system altogether. It wouldn't even play through it. Nothing else did that.

Lawrence

[Digital Dave]

Macrovision is still very alive and well.

Digital satellite providers often use it on pay-per-view films and events.

And I'd say most commercial DVDs include it.


Macrovision is an analog-only hack. It's never actually "contained" on any DVD or digtial broadcast. Rather, there's a bit somewhere that turns on the Macrovision generator in the player's analog output circuitry. This is why some of the players with "secret" menus for region-defeat will also allow Macrovision defeat.



In fact, if the rumour mill is to be believed, they were behind the demise of DVDdecrypter.


Unlikely; specifically because breaking a DVD digitally doesn't involve Macrovision in any way. Any DVD copier is a problem in the USA, but that's due to the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act), which make it illegal to defeat any copy protection mechanism (CSS, in this case, not Macrovision), even if done in the pursuit of legal activities, such as backups or other fair use.



Personally, it's not much of an issue for me - I have a couple of DVD players that ignore / strip it, plus I all the stuff that I want to capture from digital satellite doesn't include it. (Note: it's implemented differently on DVD, compared with VCR - on video tape, it was included in the signal on the tape, on DVD, it's a flag in the mpeg, that (most) DVD players honour and send out with the signal).


Pretty much. Macrovision inserts a moving, high-level spike in the vertical blanking interval (and perhaps elsewhere) in the analog output of your signal, generally near the vertical sync pulse. Early on, they found that AGC circuits in the typical VCR could be fooled into missing the actual sync pulse this way (thus that variable sync loss if you did try to record on a VCR), but TVs generally couldn't. Since then, new VCRs (TV tuners, analog PVRs, etc) have been built to specifically obey the Macrovision pulse (either don't record, or protect the recording in a similar way), TVs to specifically ignore it.

[Digital Dave]

Macrovision is still very alive and well.

Digital satellite providers often use it on pay-per-view films and events.

And I'd say most commercial DVDs include it.


Macrovision is an analog-only hack. It's never actually "contained" on any DVD or digtial broadcast. Rather, there's a bit somewhere that turns on the Macrovision generator in the player's analog output circuitry. This is why some of the players with "secret" menus for region-defeat will also allow Macrovision defeat.



In fact, if the rumour mill is to be believed, they were behind the demise of DVDdecrypter.


Unlikely; specifically because breaking a DVD digitally doesn't involve Macrovision in any way. Any DVD copier is a problem in the USA, but that's due to the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act), which make it illegal to defeat any copy protection mechanism (CSS, in this case, not Macrovision), even if done in the pursuit of legal activities, such as backups or other fair use.



Personally, it's not much of an issue for me - I have a couple of DVD players that ignore / strip it, plus I all the stuff that I want to capture from digital satellite doesn't include it. (Note: it's implemented differently on DVD, compared with VCR - on video tape, it was included in the signal on the tape, on DVD, it's a flag in the mpeg, that (most) DVD players honour and send out with the signal).


Pretty much. Macrovision inserts a moving, high-level spike in the vertical blanking interval (and perhaps elsewhere) in the analog output of your signal, generally near the vertical sync pulse. Early on, they found that AGC circuits in the typical VCR could be fooled into missing the actual sync pulse this way (thus that variable sync loss if you did try to record on a VCR), but TVs generally couldn't. Since then, new VCRs (TV tuners, analog PVRs, etc) have been built to specifically obey the Macrovision pulse (either don't record, or protect the recording in a similar way), TVs to specifically ignore it.

[Lester Burnham]

Macrovision is an analog-only hack. It's never actually "contained" on any DVD or digtial broadcast. Rather, there's a bit somewhere that turns on the Macrovision generator in the player's analog output circuitry. This is why some of the players with "secret" menus for region-defeat will also allow Macrovision defeat.

I do know this, and have commented about it elsewhere - and in fact in the very post you replied to, yet you snipped that bit from my posting, look:-


(Note: it's implemented differently on DVD, compared with VCR - on video tape, it was included in the signal on the tape, on DVD, it's a flag in the mpeg, that (most) DVD players honour and send out with the signal)


Unlikely; specifically because breaking a DVD digitally doesn't involve Macrovision in any way.

Whether you think it unlikely, or not, it's the most compelling and plausible account.

Initially, everybody believed that it was Sony.

And the Macrovision protection that you are talking about isn't the only interest that Macrovision (the company) have in copyright protection.


Any DVD copier is a problem in the USA, but that's due to the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act), which make it illegal to defeat any copy protection mechanism (CSS, in this case, not Macrovision), even if done in the pursuit of legal activities, such as backups or other fair use.

If you dispute the alleged interest of Macrovision in DVDdecrypter's demise, then simply do some research on all the threads surround and detailing DVDdecrypter's demise (see: http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/6501.cfm, see the 321 Studios reference? then go find what that was all about...)

Then come back here, and tell me you still think it's nothing to do with Macrovision (the company).

[catmom51]

I've just today read that VIDEOREDO is a good program to edit and shrink? my MCE recorded programs, and just downloaded it, then to learn more about the burning program such as Nero Vision? or the TMPGN? program. Then I read what you guys are saying about Afterdawn, and I have their dvd copy programs. Is it of any use with working with VideoRedo and MCE?

I am catmom51 and I'm very happy to find your forum site.

[Lester Burnham]

I've just today read that VIDEOREDO is a good program to edit and shrink? my MCE recorded programs, and just downloaded it, then to learn more about the burning program such as Nero Vision? or the TMPGN? program. Then I read what you guys are saying about Afterdawn, and I have their dvd copy programs. Is it of any use with working with VideoRedo and MCE?

I am catmom51 and I'm very happy to find your forum site.

VideoReDo is excellent for editing.

Shrinking is not something it currently does though - unless you consider it shrinking by merit of the video you edit out!

Shrinking is either done by transcoding (so something like dvdshrink, restream or rejig), or re-encoding using the same format (say something like DVDrebuilder, or some other encoding solution), or a more compressed format like DivX, Xvid.

If your ultimately end format is mpeg2, though, then you are looking at transcoding for small-ish reductions in size, or re-encoding for more notable size reductions. At present, VideoReDo doesn't do either of those things, as it's fundamentally an editor that originally made it's name for NOT having to re-encode the output.

[catmom51]

Hi to all in this discussion, especially Lawrence. I listened to your recomendations about VideoRedo, so I tried it, then bought it. It does accept DVR-MS and is wonderful about letting you remove anything you want before saving. I'm very impressed!

But after VRD finishes and I use Sonic's MyDVD, which came with my MCE system, to burn the dvd, the video quality is pretty bad.

I have just enhanced comcast cable, not digital. And capture it through Win XP MCE 2005. My biggest desire has been to be able to record programs my aunt and uncle can't get off their antennae, delete comm's, burn to dvd and allow them to enjoy it. They are older folks, upper 70's and the nicest people I know. But they are almost shut-ins due to Chemical substance sensitivity. So TV would be a nice pastime if they could find programs they enjoyed.

My aunt's very favorite, and the only one my uncle can watch with her every evening without getting too much stress for his blood pressure is "Sue Thomas F.B.Eye. I had been taping them on my VCR every night for them, giving them a pile at a time, which my aunt then edits out comm's and retapes. By the time she is done, it is a pretty rotten picture. I wanted better for them, so I am trying to do what I said above. But by the time I get it from plain cable, thru MCE, then VRD, and then Burn it to a dvd, It is so ugly I threw away two dvd's that actually burned properly just due to quality. I'm very disappointed! To listen to your guys, it sounds like you get good results as your end dvd. I must be using the wrong programs, or is it that I need Digital Comcast Cable to begin with? Is the signal quality that MCE captures better with the digital as opposed to the plain cable signal? Or is it something else I'm doing wrong?

This is real important to me, not just for that one program, but for my other family members and my husband and myself to be able to have an enjoyable library of viewable dvd's. We, as well as my aunt and uncle are all on social security, so have to really watch the pennies, but I already have the computer system and most of the rest of what I need and love working with the programs on my computer, so it becomes a neat and practical way to enjoy movies.

Please someone, let me know clearly what I need to do to get it right. I looked around over the last week on the internet comparing programs I could buy to try to do it better, but most of them are just redoing what VRD does better and would not accomplish what I am after.

Thank you for your help, and please excuse me if I am not supposed to ask this type of question. Or if not here, where?

April

[zaphod7501]

Quality of picture is usually not a software or post processing problem, but rather a source deficiency or capture difficulty.

First question, did you view the DVDs on a TV or the PC? PC monitors (unless considerable work is done) don't usually look very good with analog TV recordings.

The only way you can do digital cable right now with MCE is by recording from the composite or S-Video input (or UGGH the channel 3 modulator). MCE does not support QAM tuners.

The next questions would be "How are you recording cable" and "What resolution and bitrate are you using". What kind of PC tuner do you have? Do you use a cable box? All of these things will affect the quality of the recording. (and may help direct you to a forum dedicated to your hardware)

[Anole]

CatMom 51 --

This is certainly a good department of the forum to post in,
(Discussions not specifically concerning VideoReDo ) (http://www.videoredo.net/msgBoard/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
..as it's not directly related to VideoReDo.
But, you might want to start your own thread so others can find it easily.

Also, take a look at this posting (http://www.videoredo.net/msgBoard/showthread.php?t=612) at the top of this section of the forum.
It has some good info on improving the quality of capture.

[catmom51]

Anole, thank you for referring me to the message "phd" submitted on internal settings. Some of them were for older os's, but some of them I could do.

I don't know anything about starting a thread? Also, it sounds like I do need to read many more of your forums messages and also the one I found about using programs about encoding like DVD Rebuilder 0.94 and HC Encoder ver 15A.

I just started reading their messages this morning, and am not sure if it is the same thing as VideoReDo or whether it will help me at all. If you know how those programs would fit into what I am trying to accomplish, please let me know. Either way. Thanks.

Catmom51

[catmom51]

zaphod7501, thank you. I use the media center recorded tv mode to record and watch captured tv with no editing, just fast forwarding comm's. Then I got VRD and was real excited to be able to open DVR-MS files in a real editing program and get rid of comms. Then I used Sonic MyDVD to burn 2 episodes of Sue Thomas to DVD. It was too big for best quality so it stepped down to the next level. I don't know how much difference that makes yet as I haven't done one in the best quality to compare. I will tonite. But when I took the DVD I burned to the standalone DVD player, it worked fine, except that the video is awful. Everyone is fuzzy, and if your looking at someones face, and can see all their features, in the next blink, their face is transformed into an alien with nothing but skintone below the nose. No mouth. It looks eerie. I threw them away. Its pretty obvious I have to only put one epi on a dvd, but I think it is still going to look awful as it doesn't really come in that good on the vcr I taped of it which I did no editing. In SP mode. That channel does not come in great anyway, passable, but it seems all its flaws are exaggerated through copying.

I think when I was using VRD the resolution/dimensions:720 x 480, aspect ratio:4/3, bitrate:9000 Mbps, Frame rate:29.97 FPS. I had to open VRD and open one of Sue's epi's to get this information as these expressions are still new to me and I'm guessing at what some of it is about. But this is what it said if it tells you something useful.

Thank you for even answering up to now, if you can add to my meager store of knowledge I will definitely appreciate it.

Sincerely, catmom51

[zaphod7501]

Your "face" description almost sounds like a DNR (digital noise reduction) problem. (or a deinterlacing problem) Do you know what type of tuner is in your MCE PC? Some versions may have a live view that is different than recorded quality.

Another characteristic of mpeg encoding is that slight snow can make an encoder overload trying to digitize all that high frequency noise.

The reported info from VRD tools is the header. The actual bitrate will be reported in the finish box after VRD finishes. The actual rate is often more informative.

[catmom51]

Zaphod7501 and Anole thank you both for answering.

At completion of one Video I edited in VDR the little square finishing box said the bit or bitrare was 6 meg. Does that sound right? Sometimes it says 8 meg.

As for what my system has under its belt, I don't grasp everything all those technical files say, but I sure can cut and paste. I will also try to attach the list, but I don't know if I can send an attachment. I guess I'll find out real soon.

[Anole]

I didn't see any techno-babble on the video recording system.
However, the CPU type and speed are right up there with the best for handling video editing, authoring, etc !
And 1gb of ram is dandy, as is the 250gb SATA hard drive.
The only thing that'd make life better for a full time video editor, would be two of those 250gb SATA drives - read from one and save to the other.
However, your equipment is probably better than what 80% of us are using, so hold your head up ! ;)

[catmom51]

Thank you, Anole, for having the patience to go through my list. I'm sure it was overkill. I didn't want to leave the one possible useful thing out.

As it is I did forget two things! I have an external Maxtor 300 gig Harddrive sitting right on my desk, but when I don't need it I leave it off, and because I did that today, my system report didn't see it.

The other thing is I have installed Hauppauge WinTV-PVR 150. I think I read on someone's post that a different version than mine is more helpful. But I can't remember which version or what it did different. Connecting the comcast cable to the PVR card with a standard cable connection that is provided, is how I get any video to try to learn how to make a presentable finalized DVD with no commercials. I haven't gotten there yet. By the time I get it onto the DVD, it is such a crummy picture, I mostly pitch them.

Does anyone take plain jane cable reception through the process and get a reasonably good picture? If so, please share what your secret is, because I am getting discouraged. I am hoping to be able to capture, cleanup, and burn some programs my aunt and uncle like, to give them as gifts for their enjoyment in the evening. They only have antennae.

Should I have DeInterlacing clicked on or off? Thank you all, catmom51

[phd]

How do your original WinTV recordings look when editing in VRD? Do they look OK?

Does the video only look bad after authoring to a DVD?

MyDVD will tend to reencode everything so you may be better off with a DVD authoring program that does not reencode if you are recording DVD compliant MPEG2 video.

The Hauppauge cards are capable of recording parameters that are DVD compliant. (I have PVR250 cards that I record and process to DVD.)

[zaphod7501]

I missed the fact that MyDVD was re-encoding the files. That is probably the cause of the degradation. The PVR150 is cabable of recording at almost any parameter that you can think of. That's the advantage of a hardware encoder, you don't need to do anything but edit, author, and burn.

Did you buy a retail version of a 150 or 150mce? The 150 retail (but possibly not the mce version) should have come with a version of Ulead Movie Factory that will author without re-encoding. The Sonic applications sound like the ones that come with a DVD drive unit and are often crippled versions.

The Hauppauge cards are capable of some pretty good recordings. There are a dozen or so filters that are applied to the encoding process and there are some tweaking tools to touch it up even further if needed.

The 150 has a preview window that can have different parameters than the record parameters, I believe. I don't know the MCE interface for recording parameters but the following work for me. These are after editing results.
3 shows to disk: 720x480 w/avg bitrate 4Mbps max 8Mbit; Audio 48Khz sampling rate 384Kbps encoding.
4 shows to disk: 720x480 w/avg bitrate 3Mbps max 6Mbit; Audio 48Khz sampling rate 224Kbps encoding.
VHS tape copies: 352x480 w/avg bitrate 2.250Mbps max 6Mbit; Audio 48Khz sampling rate 224Kbps encoding.
BETA tape copies: 720x480 w/avg bitrate 3Mbps max 6Mbit; Audio 48Khz sampling rate 224Kbps encoding.
5 Soap Operas (for a friend; cut the ends but no editing) to a disk: 352x480 w/avg bitrate 1.725Mbps max 4Mbit; Audio 48Khz sampling rate 224Kbps encoding.