Sync Problem: Certain Files, Only Vegas Has Sync Issue

[ADLongwell]

I am using the latest VideoRedo Beta (466), and the latest Sony Vegas (6.0d). I am attempting to take .Tivo files from my Series2 Tivo. The source files were pulled from TivoDesktop 2.2. I am using VideoRedo to trim commercials and outputting MPEGs, which I want to use in Sony Vegas (and DVD Architect for burning to DVD later).

The problem
=========
Audio and video are in sync when playing the .Tivo files in windows media player. Sync is also correct in all files when previewing in VRD. When exporting the files from VRD, it indicates there are sync errors that were corrected in all files.

The exported MPEGs are in sync in windows media player. However, when I import the exported MPEGs into Sony Vegas, 2 of them are synced and 2 are not synced.

I am using the beta version because I experienced the same problem in the released version.

I understand that it's probably easy to blame Sony Vegas for this problem. After all, it appears to be the only application that's not working. However, I've paid a lot for Sony Vegas, and I like it as a video editor. I also understand that Tivo's are notorious for generating difficult MPEGs. Neither of these observations help me solve this problem.

I am willing to assist in troubleshooting to help VideoRedo generate Vegas-friendly MPEGS from my Tivo source files.

[BaysideBas]

Vegas may have trouble handling the varying length GOPs if you do frame accurate (as against GOP accurate) cutting. Could that be the case? Also, handling of MPEGs is relatively new to Vegas (with the R6 version) and I tend to avoid using DVDArchitect for MPEGs as it reencodes the files and makes them humongous at times (i've recently seen it bloat an MPEG to 4 times the original size).

[ADLongwell]

I've tried to change to GOP Accurate mode, restarted and retried a video file. Interestingly, it appears to maintain sync for a short amount of time (< 30 seconds), then gradually loses sync (audio is falling behind).

On this file, VRD indicated 6 audio frames were dropped for sync. Interestingly, the Vegas sync problem is due to slower audio than video.

Finally, Vegas seems able to maintain sync for a short time regardless of where I start playing the stream. Can someone explain what may cause that? I am a knowledgeable computer user, but a relative newbie when it comes to the MPEG format.

[Anole]

I have a friend with Vegas, but I don't think he's ever processed any non-standard video through it.
Could it be that Vegas doesn't like the Tivo video at all?
What is the actual resolution of your video?
Press Ctrl-L with a sample in VideoReDo, and post that here.

Other posts of strange problems have dealt with whether or not you trim a bit of video from the front of your mpeg file...
... and if you make a final file cut to it or not (and where that cut is located).
While these were not Vegas-related, they may give you some ideas on deciding why some files work and some do not.

[ADLongwell]

File Name: D:\tivovideo\Dave (Recorded Apr 12, 2006, HBO2).TiVo
File Size: 2145392847 ( 2.00 GB )
Program Duration: 02:00:00.17
File Type: TiVo
Encoding: MPEG 2
Video stream Id: xE0
Encoding Dimensions: 352 x 480
Display Size: 352 x 480
Aspect Ratio: 4/3
Frame Rate: 29.97 FPS
Bit Rate: 2.600 Mbps
VBV_Buffer: 224 KB
Profile: Main/Main
Progressive: Prog or Int
Chroma: 4:2:0
Audio Format: Layer 2
Audio Stream Id: xC0
Audio Bit Rate: 192 Kbps
Audio Sampling Rate: 48000 Hz

[Anole]

Thanks for the quick reply.
I'm wondering if you've ever fed that half-D1 video to Vegas before.?.
It's a standard, but certainly not full DVD standard resolution video.

Encoding Dimensions: 352 x 480
Display Size: 352 x 480
Aspect Ratio: 4/3
Frame Rate: 29.97 FPS
Bit Rate: 2.600 Mbps

I know that the DVD Labs I use will accept my non-standard video (544x480) but it bitches about it.
The specs of your video are actually VCD, if I'm not mistaken.
No insult to Vegas, but does it handle the making of VCDs?
And does it complain at all or is it happy with 352 x 480 video?

[ADLongwell]

Your comments about the resolution gave me pause. I realized I was using a 720x480 project resolution, and importing the half size file from Tivo. I have tried changing Vegas' project to match resolutions, but this does not solve the problem.

My "cut-less" export from VRD also failed to eliminate the sync issue in the file that had the problem.

The only things I've used Vegas for to date are capturing from my Sony video
camera and processing Tivo files.

[Anole]

I am willing to assist in troubleshooting to help VideoRedo generate Vegas-friendly MPEGS from my Tivo source files.

In another thread, Adapa is describing some difficulties getting TiVo files to author correctly and look good for fast-moving bicycle races.
We are going to try re-encoding TiVo 480x480 or hopefully 544x480 to full DVD spec (720x480), but at a low bit rate to get 3.5 or 4.5 hours of video onto a single layer DVD.
I'm anxious to see good success with TiVo, even though I use different equipment, just because it's an interesting challenge. ;)

My "cut-less" export from VRD also failed to eliminate the sync issue in the file that had the problem.
In my world of Dish Satellite PVRs, I occasionally have the same sort of problem: bad video.
I sometimes record special shows twice, to make sure I have a good copy to work from.
Could it be as simple as a matter of poor reception at the time of recording, that is a contributing factor?

Your small sample size may be misleading.
I guess I'm saying: try 100 files, and see what percentage have trouble.
In my case, it might be 5-15% failures, for no explained reason.
I've learned to live with it. :(
The good news is that 85 to 95% work fine, proving that I have a useful proceedure. :)

[ADLongwell]

I'll continue to experiment. I've downloaded a trial of DVDLab to experiment with it. Overall it looks superior to DVD Architect, but who knows how it will perform with these files.

I have considered the re-encode route. In fact, I considered going through the Windows Media Encoder, because I know it can read the files because Windows Media Player can. I'm then assuming Vegas can deal successfully with WMV files. Having compressed WMVs is appealing for archives, but that's a lot of encoding and re-encoding time. Ideally, I'd prefer to cut commercials and then burn the .Tivo file directly for this particular need.

I'll continue to experiment and post any helpful insights.

[Anole]

I don't encourage re-encoding unless absolutely necessary and for a good cause. :)
But, some times that's the best way.
Some experiments I've run give me over 100 frames per second, so the time isn't such a pain.

I'm not saying DVD Labs is superior.
Just that it is what I chose a year ago, based on all the input I could find (Including price!).
And, I've come to discover it's pretty good at what it does.
I've hardly tapped its feature-set.
I would recommend you let VideoReDo de-mux into .mpa and .mpv files and hand that to DVD Labs.
It's not so much a technical problem as a time-saver (and a little less messy, in my opinion).

I'll look forward to your continued exploits.
In fact, I may even call upon you to help us with other TiVo related questions. ;)

PS: I'm just a fellow visitor to the forum like you.
So don't assume I know anything (or anybody) :)

[Anole]

Also, read this thread (http://www.videoredo.net/msgBoard/showthread.php?t=2472) in the same section of the VRD forum.
It refers to TiVo-related troubles, and Vegas.
Not sure if it'll help, but maybe between you and the other guy, some good will come of it.

AND, if DanR or PHD has a comment, I'm sure it'd be welcome. ;)

[ADLongwell]

I have just read about the new features slated for TivoDesktop 2.3. They include automatic transfers :) and transcoding :D. The software was released in a limited beta earlier this year, so (fingers crossed) it should be available soon. If anyone has info on where I can get the beta for that I'd be very interested.

Given this information, I'm inclined to stop banging my head against the wall and wait until Tivo's automatic transcoder (fingers crossed tighter) can fix these problems... or if it can't at least I can complain to Tivo about their broken transcoder.

[JeffK]

I hope I can keep this thread going, because I can report having the same exact problem that ADLongwell is having. After VRD saves the .tivo file as an MPG, it can be played perfectly in Windows Media Player, but when I put it into Vegas (I’m running version 6.0d). and render from there, the rendered video quickly becomes out of sync with the audio. I DID notice something else, and that is if I put the video in question on the Vegas timeline and hit the spacebar to play the video in the preview window within Vegas, the preview is out of sync as well. In other words, Vegas plays it out of sync even BEFORE Vegas renders the video! Here’s something else I tried: I also tried opening the VRD-saved .tivo file into my other NLE program, Adobe Premeire Elements v1.0, and guess what… It’s out of sync in that program as well!

I read somewhere that NeroVision Express version 3 will let you directly load a .tivo file, edit it, create a DVD menu and burn it to a DVD, and it plays perfectly. I had a copy of it, but I never installed it (Why should I? I have Vegas and Sony DVD Architect, right?) So I installed the Nero program. The editing in NeroVision Express 3 isn’t that great, so I did the editing with VRD, then loaded the file it saved into NeroVision Express 3 and burned a DVD. Again, it worked perfectly. Perfect sync.

I also tried using Sony DVD Architect 3 to directly burn to DVD a VRD file, and again, the video and audio were out of sync. Stands to reason, I guess, since it’s also a Sony product.

Here’s something I read recently. Apparently, most any DVD authoring program can supposedly work well with .tivo files, as long as the DVD authoring program is “DirectShow-compliant”. I’m not sure what that means exactly, but I did read that NeroVision Express 3 is indeed “DirectShow-compliant”. Could this be the problem we’re having? Is Vegas not “DirectShow-compliant”, whatever that means?

I fully understand the frustration that ADLongwell is feeling. I’m feeling it too! Here I paid $600 for a near-professional-level NLE program (Vegas), and it CAN’T handle a video file that a $70 hobbyist-level DVD burning program can!! I would MUCH rather use Vegas to do my editing, since it is so much more flexible than VRD (which, don’t get me wrong, IS very good at what it does).

As of now, I’m out of options, but any help and/or conversation would be appreciated.