tivo: square picture

[jcwilkinson]

Hopefully, this is just a dumb mistake on my part. I just started using VRD+ to edit/convert tivo files to mpeg. I can load a tivo file into VRD+ just fine, edit it just fine, and create an mpeg file just fine. The mpeg plays in Windows Media Player 11 (WMP) just fine.

The problem is, the picture is square, instead of rectangular! :confused: The funny thing is, in VRD+, the picture is rectangular. I know a tivo file is 480x480, so logically, I'm not surprised to see a square picture. But I don't think that's what's supposed to happen. At least, there must be some way to create a rectangular ("TV like") picture. I set the "aspect ratio setting" on creating the output file to 4:3, to no avail. By the way, I tried using some other video software besides WMP, and it displays square on them too, so I don't think it's WMP. ALso, when I import the mpeg file into an authoring program (I use adobe premiere elements) it looks square.

Here are the properties of the input tivo file:

File Name: I:\Tivo\new tivo videos\Hometime - Ravages of Moisture 20061118 WLVT.tivo
File Size: 839493256 ( 0.78 GB )
Program Duration: 00:30:00.19
File Type: TiVo
Encoding: MPEG 2
Video stream Id: xE0
Encoding Dimensions: 480 x 480
Display Size: 480 x 480
Aspect Ratio: 4/3
Frame Rate: 29.97 FPS
Bit Rate: 3.500 Mbps
VBV_Buffer: 224 KB
Profile: Main/Main
Progressive: Prog or Int
Chroma: 4:2:0
Audio Format: Layer 2
Audio Stream Id: xC0
Audio Bit Rate: 192 Kbps
Audio Sampling Rate: 48000 Hz

This is just one, but it happens with every tivo file I use.

In VRD+ Tools/Options/playback devices, the "displayed aspect ratio" is set to "auto", but as I said, in VRD+ it displays rectangular (I guess by that I mean 4:3). If I convert the resulting mpeg file to mpeg4 using nero recode, it does become a rectangular picture. But I don't convert every video to mpeg4.

Do tivo videos just display as a square?

[dlflannery]

Must be a codec issue. While it's playing in WMP right click on the image and select properties. Note what Video (and audio) codec(s) are being used and post back. The codec should scale the aspect ratio to 4:3 but not all do. I had one in Roxio Cineplayer that did the same thing.

You can force it to use a different codec but unless you already know how to do it, it will take some help.

I'm a TiVo user so I know you shouldn't have to put up with this. Don't think I have WMP 11 yet however.

[jcwilkinson]

The audio codec is AC3 Filter
The video codec is Sonic Cinemaster® DS Video Decoder

I don't know how to make it change codecs but if you think that might be the problem I'm certainly willing to scour around the net. I'm sure there's a procedure written up somewhere!

I guess I'm assuming I have another codec for it to use... is that a valid assumption?

[Robbi]

Click options before saving, set to 16:9.

[jcwilkinson]

I saved another version as Robbi suggested, 16:9. It didn't work - WMP still displays as square. I thought the file properties were interesting, however:

Video Size: 480 x 480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 actual, 1:1 displayed
Audio Codec: -
Video Codec: Nero Video Decoder

That "1:1 displayed" remark seems kinda strange. I guess it's using the Nero codec because I used Add/Remove Programs to remove the Sonic Cinemaster codec it was using before. Apparently it didn't make any difference in WMP, however it did make a difference in a player called "Media Player Classic", which previously displayed it as square. But I don't know yet how to make WMP use a particular codec. I even re-installed WMP 11, but no luck.

Also, my authoring software (premiere elements) treats it as 4:3. And of course, VRD+ has always treated it as 4:3. I wonder what codec it uses?

So now I have mixed results. Which, I guess, is better than all bad results.

Oh, oddly enough, given the fact that WMP seems to be using a Nero codec, the player that comes with Nero - Showtime - doesn't even play the video at all! It complains about "error reading file".

[dlflannery]

The audio codec is AC3 Filter
The video codec is Sonic Cinemaster® DS Video Decoder

I don't know how to make it change codecs but if you think that might be the problem I'm certainly willing to scour around the net. I'm sure there's a procedure written up somewhere!

I guess I'm assuming I have another codec for it to use... is that a valid assumption?
Assuming you were playing the .tivo file for which you gave Ctrl-L info, the AC3 Filter audio codec doesn't make sense. Your video has Mpeg-layer2 audio, not AC3. Not sure what to make of that.

Anyway, it looks like you need to get the right codec selected into WMP. There are probably many mpeg2 codecs on your computer. There is a complicated system that selects which one to use based partially on a "merit" value assigned to each codec. What you need is two things:
1. At least one DirectShow type mpeg2 codec that will play your TiVo files correctly.
2. Have it selected based on high enough merit compared to other competing codecs.

Go to www.videohelp.com/tools and download two (free) tools:
1. GraphEdit
2. Radlight Filter Manager

Run graphedit, select "Render Media File" and select your .tivo file. The resulting graph shows the codecs (and other filters if any) that are being used. This should match what you saw in WMP properties.

Radlight filter manager allows you to adjust the merits of your codecs. The ones you are concerned about are just the category called DirectShow. Read the help and this guide (http://thehtpcrecord.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39). The most important thing is to be able to undo any changes you make in merits in case you really screw things up. This is aided by the fact the program maintains a log file of every change you make.

In general you want to adjust the relative merits of the DirectShow mpeg2 codecs so one that works is selected. Unless you already have one that you know works, this is a game of trial and error. The program also allows you to completely disable a codec.

Do you have TiVo desktop installed? I believe it comes with an Intervideo codec designed to work with TiVo -- so look for that codec in the Radlight listing and boost its merit.

After you change codec merits test using GraphEdit (and WMP) to see what codec you actually select and whether it works well. Then test everything else that uses mpeg2 codecs to see if you've messed it up.

[Robbi]

dlflannery I've tried to explain merits before but not so good as you have just done. This post should be in the wiki project and on the web site. I understand it clearly, but the test is do others. We will find out from what jcwilkinson replies with.

[Robbi]

jcwilkinson another thing to note vrd properties has said it is 4:3, but to be sure do the following.

Open vrd | Tools | options | Playback Devices | Display Screen Aspect | Set this to Auto

Load your video into vrd or reload it, now what you see is what your video really is.

Note: Although if it doesn't start exactly on the program. But on another or an advert, this lead up may be 4:3 aspect, the program part you want could be 16:9 aspect. Best way to check is to either save a clip from the program you need, i min will do. Or use Trim and Copy of a small clip from the needed program. Save and load back into vrd the saved clip, shown will be the true aspect of the program you want.

[jcwilkinson]

I used the 2 programs - graph edit & radlight filter manager - as dlflannery suggested. They were both easy to use, and I got a lot of good information from using both of them. I was indeed able to change the codec used by WMP, however, it still displayed square! After the codec change, however, every other media player I have displayed it 4:3.

My authoring program treats the video as 4:3, and that's the important thing to me. Also, I converted the VRD mpeg2 file to a divx/avi file (using SUPER) for play on a zen vsion m, and it worked perfectly.

So I'm not going to worry about WMP. I don't really use it to watch my tivo videos (I can just use my TV!), so I'll just chalk it up to something weird about WMP, at least WMP 11. I am half-tempted to roll back to WMP 10 to see if the problem is there also (I don't remember ever having this problem before), but that's a somewhat involved process and I would really rather spend the time on new videos, so I'll just let it go.

Thanks, everyone, for your assistance! :)

[dlflannery]

Your welcome -- glad it turned out good for you!

I'm curious what codec you ended up using (?)

I suspect the square picture is a WMP11 issue. I have WMP10 and it doesn't do that. Actually, I don't record at 480x480 very often. I know WMP10 handles 352x480 OK (4:3 display). I'll have to try a 480x480. (I don't use WMP much anyway.)

I confess I had no idea what a Creative Zen M was, but Googled it to Amazon. What a whiz-bang! So you must be encoding your AVI/DivX to 320x240. I've just started experimenting with DivX for compressing my DVD mpegs to save space, plus you can play them back directly from DivX file with some DVD players (e.g., Phillips DVP5960 - $70). I've tried Dr.DivX and the DivX Converter for encoding, using the latest (6.4 Pro) codec (15 day trial). I notice the Zen plays codecs up to ver. 5. Does that mean you can't use the 6.x codec? Or does Super use its own codecs? What quality or bit rate do you select for the Zen encodes? The two converters I have tried have several pre-defined profiles (e.g., HD, Home Theatre, etc.). Does Super have something like that? I've been very pleased with the DivX encodings of 352x480 .TiVo files and 720x480 mpeg2 files. Compressed by factors between 3X and 4X and I can't see any quality degradation at all when played on my computer. (Don't have the Phillips yet.)

[dcmarsh]

Have had this problem since forever and never been able to fix it, and had given up, similar to the original poster to this thread. Have posted to the Tivo forum too a while back, and many other people had the same "square picture" problem, but here too, it was "you have the wrong codec", but no one could point to a simple "here's what you need" answer for us dummy's. I really want to be able to play these files on my computer when I travel, or to show others sections of advertisements for our company, or whatever.

I'm running WMP 10. Whatever I record using the Sony built-in stuff (GigaPocket) on my computer works fine when edited by VRD. But Tivo, it looks fine when being edited, but when saved, no matter what the settings, it's always "smooshed".

Does anyone have a "buy this, install that, set the setting to x" solution? I've tried all the VRD settings people have recommended in here.

Seems like such a basic thing that so many people have problems with, that there ought to be an answer besides doing a bunch of research and becoming a video codec expert.

Thanks for any ideas.

[jcwilkinson]

I have one more update to report. First, in answer to dlflannery's question - I believe the codec that WMP was last using (after I adjusted the priority) was called "ffdshow" or something like that. I can't say exactly because WMP now uses a different codec, although I'm not absolutely sure the codec was the problem, since other players were using the same codec with no "square display" problem.

Anyway, much like dcmarsh, I just wanted the problem to do away, so I thought I'd try installing the latest roxio suite (9). I uninstalled nero, then downloaded and installed roxio. To my complete surprise, the "square display" problem has gone away! Of course, it already had gone away with every player except for WMP 11, but now even that displays the tivo-converted 480x480 mpeg2 files perfectly - 4:3. I'm not implying that nero was the problem (as a matter of fact, I don't think it was), and maybe if I had uninstalled and then re-installed nero, I'd have gotten the same result. Personally, I just think somehow the video software on my system (maybe in the registry) had gotten out of whack, and uninstalling and re-installing a big video software package sort if "re-booted" it. Maybe that's too simplistic, but all I can tell you is what happened.

By the way, WMP now reports it's using intervideo codec for both audio & video.

Finally, regarding the zen m, it's an amazing device. I found although it supports a number of video formats (I've tried divx/avi and wmv), the bitrate is important. It doesn't like variable bitrates, for example. And if the bitrate is too high, it won't play. I keep it under 768 kbps and haven't had any problems. The video looks amazing, even at 320x240. It has a nice form factor, and it's packed with functionality. I've created video files for it with SUPER, with the creative software that comes with the zen, and with the lightwave application that comdes with roxio. Of course, if VRD would spit out divx or avi or wmv files, that would be much more convenient...

[dlflannery]

.........
Finally, regarding the zen m, it's an amazing device. I found although it supports a number of video formats (I've tried divx/avi and wmv), the bitrate is important. It doesn't like variable bitrates, for example. And if the bitrate is too high, it won't play. I keep it under 768 kbps and haven't had any problems. The video looks amazing, even at 320x240. It has a nice form factor, and it's packed with functionality. I've created video files for it with SUPER, with the creative software that comes with the zen, and with the lightwave application that comdes with roxio. Of course, if VRD would spit out divx or avi or wmv files, that would be much more convenient...
I wish I had a magic wand of understanding re: codecs, but what has been in the posts in this thread is the limit of my understanding. Some applications force the use of a specific codec, others play the lottery with the Windows DirectShow "Merit" scheme. I wish I knew a tool that would just tell you what codec is being used at any given moment (like properties in WMP).

jcwilkinson: So you set quality in SUPER via just the bit rate? I assume you also choose the 320x240 format, correct. From my experience encoding DivX for the "home theatre" profile (typically 640x480 or greater) one of the programs I've tried automatically sets the bit rate target at 900 kbps. So the 768 number you mention would be pretty high for 320x240.

I've got EMC9 suite also. If you installed it without any glitches, you are ahead of the game I think. Did you notice the pinned post on the Roxio EMC9 installation forum regarding conflict between the DivX codec versions installed by Roxio and others? There is a simple fix it seems. I haven't tried any DivX conversions using my EMC 9 stuff. Frankly, I've not built up any particular trust in that software based on my limited use and forum posts.

Do you know which DivX codec version is being used for the various methods you are using? Still wondering if SUPER has it's own built in DivX codec -- suspect it does. I know it calls ffmpeg and mencoder and I know at least ffmpeg has its own built in codecs, at least for most formats.

[jcwilkinson]

So you set quality in SUPER via just the bit rate? I assume you also choose the 320x240 format, correct. From my experience encoding DivX for the "home theatre" profile (typically 640x480 or greater) one of the programs I've tried automatically sets the bit rate target at 900 kbps. So the 768 number you mention would be pretty high for 320x240.

I uninstalled SUPER, along with a couple of other programs (like radlight filter manager) when I uninstalled nero. I wanted to remove any program that I thought might have something to do with codecs. Probably overkill... So I don't have it in front of me, but what I did was experiment. In SUPER, everything is configurable, so every time I learned something new about video files I used that knowledge to create another conversion profile (you can save profiles) and played the resulting file. That's how I figured out that the zen m doesn't like variable (or real high) bit rates. In the beginning, I thought the higher the bit rate the better. Which may be true, just not necessarily practical. And in the end, even the lower bit rate files still look extremely good.

So in SUPER I set the resolution (I played with 320x240 & 640x480, but there are many others possible), bitrate, aspect ratio, whether or not to use directshow (didn't make a noticeable difference), the codec (to a limited extent), and also the audio settings (bitrate, sample size, channels, etc). There may be other settings I'm forgetting at the moment. So once I came up with a profile that generated a file that was usable, I saved the profile. Unfortunately, it doesn't handle tivo files. And it's not an editor, just a converter.

As far as roxio goes, the only thing I use is it's lightwave application, to create the divx files, I don't need it for tivo files since I have VRD, and I don't need it for authoring since I have premiere elements. I suppose I might try it's audio tools for ripping, tagging, etc. I use WMP for that now.

[Robbi]

Windows Media Player Classic is a far better player than the rest, and is very configurable.

Graphedit is useful to see what codec filters your loaded file is currently using with directshow. This changes when you change your merit values for your codecs. Or you build a new prefered graph which filters to use for the format.

You can also use graphedit to connect to other softwares. Doing this you can see what codecs they are using. And force them to change which codecs to use. This depends if the remote software allows graphedit to connect to it.

WMP likes to use direct show dmo filters first if it can. WMP is able to connect to graphedit, this enables you to select which filters WMP should use.

FFdshow i try every now and again, for me it has always caused problems at some time or other. I cannot figure out why, so i do not use it or have it installed permantly.

[dcmarsh]

Well, I spent the $100 for Roxio 9, and I still have square pictures. Very depressing. So, I"m guessing, that if I offered $500 to anyone who could offer a guaranteed way to make Tivo recordings play on a laptop using Microsoft, there would be many answers, but nothing that works for sure. So I guess that means we are a long way from prime time for this technology. What would it take to make this work? What if the offer were $1,000? I'm guessing still no answer, except do a bunch of research and become an expert in codecs. What if the offer were $10,000?

[jcwilkinson]

So I guess that means we are a long way from prime time for this technology.

Unfortunately, yes.

If the problem really bothers you that much, I can suggest one other procedure. It basically involves recoding the VRD-produced mpeg file into another mpeg file converted by a program called SUPER (Simplified Universal Player Encoder & Renderer). You can google it and download and install it. If you read the other posts in this thread, you'll realize that the name is somewhat of a misnomer - it's not exactly plug n' play. But it's not rocket science either. I'm pretty sure (no guarantees here!) that if you take the mpeg file produced by VRD and set up SUPER to generate an mpeg2 file at 720x480 and 4:3, and then play that in WMP, you'll see a normal rectangular display. The reason I say that is because the mpeg4 files I created using SUPER when I did have the "square display" problem showed as 4:3 in WMP. Probably because I specified the resolution (320x240). Maybe the same thing will happen if you go mpeg to mpeg. It's worth a shot.

SUPER is free. So the only thing you'll lose this time is some time, if it doesn't work.

Good luck.

[dlflannery]

Windows Media Player Classic is a far better player than the rest, and is very configurable.

Graphedit is useful to see what codec filters your loaded file is currently using with directshow. This changes when you change your merit values for your codecs. Or you build a new prefered graph which filters to use for the format.

You can also use graphedit to connect to other softwares. Doing this you can see what codecs they are using. And force them to change which codecs to use. This depends if the remote software allows graphedit to connect to it.

WMP likes to use direct show dmo filters first if it can. WMP is able to connect to graphedit, this enables you to select which filters WMP should use.
.............
I can't get WMP to connect to GraphEdit but MPC (Media Player Classic) does. Is that what you meant?

[dlflannery]

I transfered a 480x480 TiVo (Best Quality) just to try it in WMP(10) and MPC. It played with 4:3 aspect.

I wanted to see what rendering chain was being used for .TiVo files and since MPC is the only player I have that will let GraphEdit connect to it, I tried to load the .TiVo directly into MPC. No Dice! I tried all kinds of settings regarding format, internal codecs, external codecs, renaming file to .mpg -- nothing worked. Finally I found a reference on the Source Forge MPC forum to a thread on the TivoCommunity forum (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=306097&highlight=MPC)that discussed this very problem. The bottom line is that an older version (6484) of MPC loads .TiVo fine. If you want it to see .TiVo in the load-file browser (without having to specify All Files *.*) you need to go into View->Options->Player->Formats and add the .TiVo extension to the MPEG Media File line.

Anyway, finally got to see the rendering chain in GraphEdit and it told me nothing different from when it renders a .mpg file. (I was hoping I'd see some special TiVo filter in the chain, which would then allow filter merit adjustments to make WMP11 stop being "square".)

So far this looks like a WMP11 problem (??)

[Robbi]

$10,000 post haste :)
Contact the device maker for a firmware update fix, if you think it is the hardware unit at fault.

Open graphedit, don't do anything with it. Load a file into wmp and play it, i normaly pause it. In graphedit it should now be able to connect, if not do a connect refresh. If that doesn't work try the oposite way, one way or another could work. WMPC connects first time, it says a lot about wmp, being the default player for xp. That you can change to WMPC if you find it works better than wmp.

[dlflannery]

.......Open graphedit, don't do anything with it. Load a file into wmp and play it, i normaly pause it. In graphedit it should now be able to connect, if not do a connect refresh. If that doesn't work try the oposite way, one way or another could work. ........
Nope... no combination works for me. Don't care much anyway but thanks anyway.

[Robbi]

WMPC works, and this is all, that is needed to work.

WMP is no use for anything it stinks, now stinks even more with DRM.

[kelaniz]

Hello all. Maybe this can be of some help.

What I've always done is, I grab the .Tivo files with Tivo Desktop, then De-Tivo them with the free DirectShow Dump utility, which just (quickly) removes the Tivo-specific info and makes them standard MPEGs. It doesn't perform any quality-degrading changes on the file.

Then, (Before VRD) I used to edit them in one of the TMPGEnc apps, usually TMPGEnc xPress. I have the KL codec pack (Full) installed, and it seems to work for me with all Tivo resolutions on all players.

Currently, my install of the KL Codec pack is using the MainConcept MPEG Video Decoder for video.

The only app that I've ever had cause the square picture is Media Player Classic, and then, by either:

Unchecking the Video Frame - Keep Aspect Ratio setting
OR
Setting Video Frame/Override Aspect Ratio to a specific AR% instead of 'Default'

I don't use WMP11 anymore, so I can't recall if there was a similar setting, but I do know in WMP 9 the Video Size / Fit Video (or player) On Resize/Start will mess with the aspect ratio. I leave it at 100%. Other poster's right, though, WMP (any version) is absolute crap. No customization, and getting it to support all the types of video you're likely to encounter would be a nightmare, if it's even possible.


Hope that helps a little..

[Dan203]

Some filters handle 480x480 OK, others do not. If you're having a problem with a specific MPEG decode filter causing a square picture try using a DirectShow filter manager to lower the merit of the problem filter so that another one will be selected instead.

Another option is to upgrade to the TiVo Desktop Plus version, and save all your edited video files as .tivo files. With Desktop Plus the TiVo decoder filter is setup to automatically add a specific chain of filters to the graph. The decoder filter they use handles 480x480 just fine, plus they also use a copping filter which trims off the 4 pixels at the top of the video so you don't have to see that VBI blinking line.