Help for long-time Womble MPEG Video Wizard user

[tluxon]

I started editing mpegs from our ReplayTVs some 5 or 6 years ago using Womble's MPEG-VCR and for the last several years with MPEG Video Wizard. Just over two years ago I began editing HDTV captures from our Comcast HD-DVRs. Don't want to make any enemies over here, but I love using MVW and often use if for viewing programs full-resolution-full-screen with hotkey on-the-fly editing.

Anyway, a few weeks ago I installed a Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1600 HDTV tuner card in my PC and began using it. The files are saved as .mpg files instead of the .ts files I'm accustomed to, but for the most part they edit just as well as the firewire-captured .ts files did. However, I've noticed that not all MPEGs seem to be created equal with this 1600.

With HVR-1600 created MPEGs where the PC would've been awakened from sleep to record a scheduled program, the files play fine with VLC but are garbled in MPEG Video Wizard. Would things likely be any different in VideoReDo? If so, anybody care to guess why?

BTW, once the computer is awake, any recordings made come out perfect and edit just fine.

Thanks!

Tim

[zaphod7501]

The native application (and possibly third party programs) will often record a 720p or 1080i stream with a few frames at the beginning that are 720x480 or 704x480. This will cause problems with playing or editing with some programs. It might be something left in a buffer that's not being cleared right away.

VRD can strip those frames off in a few ways; using filters to seperate by dimensions; Quick Strean Fix; Trim and Copy. You need to get those incorrect frames off before some applications can handle those files.

You can verify this with the trial version of VRD if you wish. I was beta testing the HVR1600 and switched to GB-PVR because of this problem with WinTV2k.

[HyperReality]

From what has been mentioned above, it sounds like it may be a bug in the drivers for the 1600 that is resulting in old/garbage data being left in some internal buffers when the device comes out of standby/hibernate. This garbage is then being output when the recording starts and, as zaphod suggests may be corrupting the recording.

Maybe GBPVR ignores a certain amount of data at start time, and this avoids the problem?

Are there any newer drivers available for the card? Have you tried contacting Hauppauge Tech Support? (umm, that may be a waste of time...).

[zaphod7501]

Are there any newer drivers available for the card? Have you tried contacting Hauppauge Tech Support? (umm, that may be a waste of time...).
I was beta testing and couldn't get any response from them. We'll just have to wait... and wait. Their method seems to be to let third parties develop applications. You have to use alternate applications to have both tuners recording simultaneously. They would probably prefer to unload support completely by preferring Window's MCE versions.

I think WinTV2k always starts up on either the last channel it was on or the first channel in it's channel listing, and then switches to recording the desired station.

[tluxon]

I've heard the same thing about Hauppauge, but the price seemed right to get a card with hardware analog encoding that could also record the HD transport stream. I didn't realize the software would be so inadequate until actually using it for a while. I plan to try WatchHDTVTS next, and perhaps ultimately GB-PVR, MediaPortal, or BeyondTV or SageTV.

Meanwhile, until I find another way to ensure against getting bad files, I'll just make sure WinTV2k is already running before any scheduled recordings.

I still have these corrupt files and have a thought. Many years ago I'd offload ReplayTV files and every once in a while experience similar symptoms. They would "play" just fine but I couldn't edit them at all with Womble or TMPGENc. Often the "fix" was to simply trim out the first few seconds using a simple command line editor that had originally been designed to cut out commercials using data from ReplaytTV's associated .evt file (the editor was named RTVedit, part of a collection of tools called RTVTools). Once the first few seconds had been removed from the "bad" file with the command line editor, Womble would edit what was remaining just fine. I haven't run into files like this in a while and I don't know if it might be that editors such as Womble are more tolerant of such errors in files. MPEG Video Wizard has always been good at correcting other errors in files, so maybe this type of error just hasn't been addressed yet. It looks like VideoReDo has been updated more recently so perhaps it will be more tolerant of this kind of file issue.

Does the trial version of VideoReDo provide full functionality?

Are there any command line editors you could recommend for stripping out the first few seconds of an HDTV MPEG-2 file?

Thanks!

Tim

[phd]

Make sure you install a trial key for full functionality. Help>Request Trial Key.

Also download and install the latest Beta of VideoReDo available here:
http://www.videoredo.net/beta/

[zaphod7501]

TSReader also seems to be able to control the tuner quite well. But you can't record for more than a minute with the "lite" free version and it won't operate in batch mode (using Windows Scheduler) unless you buy the full version.

I was using VRD's QSF with "filters" enabled to strip the wrong resolutions off the beginning. This also ensures it won't crash if the broadcaster changes resolutions during the program by making sure your output file is all of a single resolution.

[tluxon]

Well, the good news it that VRD was indeed able to work with those problem files and save out good ones.

The bad news is I'm sure not comfortable with the user interface of VRD yet. There are a few things I'm accustomed to doing in Mpeg Video Wizard that I can't figure out how to do in VRD (if it's even possible). Among them are double-clicking to make the video window full screen and toggling between Normal (all frames), Medium (P-frames only), and Fast (I-frames only) speeds. I'm sure I'm missing something, but I also couldn't figure out how to drag and drop scene selections (clips in MVW) into a new timeline.

Hopefully in the short time I have to try VRD out I'll learn enough to change my mind, but right now it's hard to imagine shelling out $50 simply to "fix" the odd file that doesn't edit properly in MVW. Do you guys know of any other less costly file-"fixers" that might do the same thing?

Thanks for the suggestion of TSReader. I had heard of it many times for diagnosis of a .ts file, but I wasn't aware that it could be used for scheduling recordings. I'll have to look into that a bit more.

Thanks!

[tluxon]

...not comfortable with the user interface of VRD yet. There are a few things I'm accustomed to doing in Mpeg Video Wizard that I can't figure out how to do in VRD (if it's even possible)...toggling between Normal (all frames), Medium (P-frames only), and Fast (I-frames only) speeds...I watch a lot of football and basketball games and spend a lot of time in fast-forward, only slowing down to play the most interesting (to me) segments. One of the things I like about Mpeg Video Wizard is that I can do this in the editing environment and mark clips on the fly. I can normally "watch" an entire football game complete with saving out desired clips for posterity in less than an hour. Is there any way to achieve that functionality in VRD?

Thank you!

Tim

[phd]

You can set navigation buttons and keys to any configuration you wish.
Tools>Options>Navigation

The keys and buttons will autorepeat if you hold them down.

It will probably be easier for you to mark segments in scene mode.

If you would like the capability of having a jog/shuttle knob for a VCR type interface, you might also look at the Contour Shuttle Express or Pro 2.

I created a couple of profiles for each including editing. The shuttle knob has the following controls in both forward and reverse (no audio):
5 FPS
10 FPS
30 FPS
5 seconds/sec.
10 seconds/sec.
30 seconds/sec.
60 seconds/sec.

[tluxon]

I tried setting one of the keys to I-frames so I wouldn't miss details that get lost when looking at only one frame per video second, but the time between frames was much too slow for speed viewing.

Scene mode is the only one I've used so far.

The Shuttle Express looks really cool, but since so much of my viewing/editing is done from my notebook PC, it might not be that useful to me.

Mpeg Video Wizard has an MPEG GOP Fixer and a MPEG MBS Scanner (which automatically parses a file into separate clips where a resolution/bitrate change takes place), but I haven't had much success preserving the whole file (seems to dump about 67% from original).

Also, MPEG2Repair crashes before it gets 2GB into a file. Are there any other tools I could try that might get these files into a suitable state for viewing/editing in MVW?

I installed WatchHDTV to see if I could get recordings that were free of this symptom in the first place but it crashes whenever I try to record something. I haven't figured out why yet. Maybe I'll try GB-PVR next.

Thanks a ton for your tips and suggestions!

Tim

[tluxon]

WatchHDTV is working fine, but it records .dvr-ms files which MVW doesn't support yet so I don't know if the files are any "cleaner" than the problem ones were with WinTV2k. I'll have to see what the WatchHDTV editor can do.

Again, mpeg2repair crashes before it gets 2GB into a file. Are there any other tools I could try that might get these files into a suitable state for viewing/editing in MVW?

Can someone please recommend some simple HiDef stream compatible editing tools that'll remove the first 20 or 30 frames from a file without having to shell out $50 for VRD? I apologize for being such a cheapskate, but it's hard to justify redirecting that much from my wife and kids for such a minimal use when I've already got MVW which I prefer for 99% of the kind of editing I do.

Thanks!

[phd]

If you aren't planning to purchase VideoReDo anyway, why not ask on the MVW forum for their suggestion?

Maybe they can suggest a solution for their product.

[tluxon]

If you aren't planning to purchase VideoReDo anyway, why not ask on the MVW forum for their suggestion?

Maybe they can suggest a solution for their product.Oh, there's a decent chance that I'll still buy VRD, it would just be a shame if the only thing I use it for is the rare file I get that I can't open directly in MVW?

I'm afraid I don't know you well enough to be able to tell if you really know of an MVW forum or if you're just being cute. If you know of a forum please let me know because I've never come across one despite coming across countless Womble users.

So far the only communication I've had with them is via their support line. They are trying to help (suggestions of trying MVW's GOP Fixer and/or MBS Scanner), but they are definitely interested in seeing the kind of file I'm having trouble with. I'm not holding out a ton of hope that they'll have any kind of solution right away and that's why I'm looking for other workarounds.

By the way, in VRD I can't figure out how to make the video display go full screen so I can can do all my segment marking and selection adds via the keyboard. Am I missing something or is this not possible?

Thanks

[phd]

I don't know if they have a forum. I would assume they do or they may use some other established forum for support of their product.

Generally, wherever a large number of users of a product gather, someone would have run into a similar problem and can offer a suggestion. I would have to assume there would be a better source of information on Womble elsewhere rather than the VideoReDo forum.

VideoReDo does not display the video at full screen.

[tluxon]

I'm afraid I may have made the wrong impression, as it was not my intention to seek information on Womble here in the VideoReDo forum.

Instead, having seen an awful lot of positive comments about VideoReDo on various forums across the web, I came here hoping other users of MPEG editors (VideoReDo in this case) might be able to shed light on the issues I saw in certain files. In the process, I hoped to learn more about VideoReDo in the short time I had to evaluate it. Thankfully, I found that VideoReDo does indeed take care of the types of files I was having issues with. It just so happens that I was already a very satisfied user of Mpeg Video Wizard (with that nasty little exception - LOL), a product that many seem to think is a competitor to VideoReDo, although from my perspective their differences seem more significant than their similarities. I guess it all depends on what the user is trying to accomplish. My hope was truly that I was just a few hidden settings away from being able to use VideoReDo for pretty much everything I currently use MVW for and in a similar manner.

VideoReDo appears to be a very nice program and it seems to be very good at its strengths. I think its popularity speaks to that, and I will certainly recommend it to anyone who wants to remove commercials, correct problems in files, and prepare videos for DVD. I'm sure most people won't care that it doesn't have the most versatile user-interface.

Tim

[Lester Burnham]

I'm afraid I may have made the wrong impression, as it was not my intention to seek information on Womble here in the VideoReDo forum.

Yet that's really what you have done - and finally, kinda damning VideoReDo with faint praise.

As Pat has suggested, the VideoReDo forums aren't a general replacement for non-product specific forums, like those provided by say videohelp or doom9 - who provide specific, established, and quite advanced, vendor agnostic forums.

Instead, having seen an awful lot of positive comments about VideoReDo on various forums across the web, I came here hoping other users of MPEG editors (VideoReDo in this case) might be able to shed light on the issues I saw in certain files.

Thing is, though, most users, here, will be VideoReDo users, who it's likely won't have the issues you will.

For the problems you are having, you would be better advised, asking in vendor-agnostic forums, or any provided by Womble. As it is, posting here, wittering on about other vendor's products, could be perceived as cleverly conspired spamming. I'm not accusing you of that, I will stress - I'm merely pointing out that spending so much time talking about a competitors product, could be perceived as either a little unfair, or perhaps somewhat more sinister.

In the process, I hoped to learn more about VideoReDo in the short time I had to evaluate it. Thankfully, I found that VideoReDo does indeed take care of the types of files I was having issues with. It just so happens that I was already a very satisfied user of Mpeg Video Wizard (with that nasty little exception - LOL),

In which case, the normal type of enquiry would be - in the assumption that you largely expect to keep using MVW - is to pursue their support environment to resolve their issues, as VideoReDo users do here.

I can understand you coming here and asking whether VideoReDo will address the problems you are encountering - that's one thing, but you've spent so much time mentioning MVW and your appreciation of it, here, that I think you are nearing being almost inappropriate.

a product that many seem to think is a competitor to VideoReDo,

Which I'm sure is a perspective held by both Womble and DRDsystems.

although from my perspective their differences seem more significant than their similarities.

Well that may go to perspective, but looks rather convenient, here.

I guess it all depends on what the user is trying to accomplish. My hope was truly that I was just a few hidden settings away from being able to use VideoReDo for pretty much everything I currently use MVW for and in a similar manner.

And that's what you seem to be heavily repeating - which I personally think is bordering on the dubious, in a VideoReDo forum. If it's such a great product, that you are very happy with (in the main) why have you had to resort to posting in a competitors support forum, regarding problems or issues you have with MVW.

That's why I've been uncomfortable with and feel this thread has been somewhat inequitable. You've spent so much time explaining your appreciation of a direct competitor's product, whilst requesting (effectively) support from another vendor, that you've not bought anything from.

You have to see that spending so much time talking about MVW in a VideoReDo forum, whilst requesting speculative support, could be seen as being inappropriate - or bordering on that?

VideoReDo appears to be a very nice program and it seems to be very good at its strengths. I think its popularity speaks to that, and I will certainly recommend it to anyone who wants to remove commercials, correct problems in files, and prepare videos for DVD. I'm sure most people won't care that it doesn't have the most versatile user-interface.

Which in context, I think, is quite unfair criticism.

And in fairness, you've come here, because the vendor of your chosen product, has not been able to provide anything like the support resources that are available here.

I'd not have any of the same reservations about this thread, had you not spent so much time almost writing appreciations and advocacy of another vendor's product. But to blather on about a direct competitor's product, whilst asking (in effect) for free, speculative support, could make some people quite curious as to your intent.

As an example - the subject line of your thread, doesn't actually mention the nature of your problem - it merely explicitly cites the alternate vendor and product you are currently using, and alludes to your history and length of use.

[tluxon]

Lester,

I appreciate the investment you made in responding, and I greatly respect and value the many technical contributions you've made to this helpful and friendly forum. I must say, however, that I'm a little uncomfortable with the personal and extensive nature of your response in this thread.

Clearly, I failed to anticipate the level of sensitivity there would be to any affection shown here for certain attributes of a "competitor's" product. If/as I continue posting here (assuming I'll become a "paying" customer), I'll certainly try to limit mentioning names, as I'd hate for that to be an obstacle to having honest, helpful, and topic-centric discussions.

In fairness, I believe a forum such as this is a most appropriate place for a prospective user to ask questions about an unfamiliar user-interface from the perspective of familiarity with a "competitor's" user-interface. After all, enhancement requests and upgrades are frequently the result of experience with a competitor's product. I'm completely in favor of discussions of attributes (no matter where they originated) that may lead to a more satisfying user experience for more people.

In this case, I simply hoped that the nature of my experience with the user-interface was due to unfamiliarity, and that the simple flip of a few preference settings would make me go "aahhhhhh-much better". I truly expected that many VideoReDo users would've had experience with the user interface of ___, and have a sense of what I meant when I alluded to full-resolution, high-speed but frame accurate editing in fullscreen (by double-clicking on the rendering window).

I first heard about ___ on the ReplayTV discussion in AVSForum back in early 2002. It was the method of choice for those who didn't mind paying for an mpeg editor that was fast, simple, and frame-accurate. Not long after that it seemed like I was hearing a lot of the same kinds of comments about this new program named VideoReDo. I didn't even look at it at the time, having already paid for ___ and finding it to meet my "needs". It wasn't until a couple weeks ago that I even wondered if VideoReDo might meet some "needs" that suddenly came up that ___ didn't seem to address and I found a link to this forum on their home page. I honestly thought I'd get more the kind of information I was looking for here than on a vendor-neutral forum.

In spite of the "beating" I took it appears I was right. I'll just try to be more careful to avoid the appearance of promoting a competitive product when I tout any of its attributes.

Thank you and have a great day!

Tim

[Lester Burnham]

Lester,

I appreciate the investment you made in responding, and I greatly respect and value the many technical contributions you've made to this helpful and friendly forum. I must say, however, that I'm a little uncomfortable with the personal and extensive nature of your response in this thread.

Clearly, I failed to anticipate the level of sensitivity there would be to any affection shown here for certain attributes of a "competitor's" product. If/as I continue posting here (assuming I'll become a "paying" customer), I'll certainly try to limit mentioning names, as I'd hate for that to be an obstacle to having honest, helpful, and topic-centric discussions.

In fairness, I believe a forum such as this is a most appropriate place for a prospective user to ask questions about an unfamiliar user-interface from the perspective of familiarity with a "competitor's" user-interface. After all, enhancement requests and upgrades are frequently the result of experience with a competitor's product. I'm completely in favor of discussions of attributes (no matter where they originated) that may lead to a more satisfying user experience for more people.

Quite - and I have no issues with that - if you simply asked questions, given the context of what you currently use - MVW.

BUT - the subject line of your thread doesn't actually even mention the nature of your enquiry. It just mentions the vendor, application, and indicates the length of time you've been using it for. Given that, and how much you've been really more detailing your favoured application, should give you some hint, as to why this thread has bordered on the inappropriate.

I've felt uncomfortable about this thread for some time, but held off saying anything, and giving the benefit of the doubt. But to churlishly end your posting that I replied to, with subtle criticisms of VideoReDo's user interface, just seems rather inequitable, in context, with why and how you are posting here.

Surely you can see that the emphasis in the subject line (which went no way to actually give readers any nature of your enquiry - merely your history of product choice), and how you've faintly lauded product superiority, albeit accepting a minor foible, could be seen as somewhat injust to DRDsystems who provide these forums for their customers.

I honestly thought I'd get more the kind of information I was looking for here than on a vendor-neutral forum.

In spite of the "beating" I took it appears I was right. I'll just try to be more careful to avoid the appearance of promoting a competitive product when I tout any of its attributes.

In fairness, you could imagine DRDsystems - albeit taking it with good grace - finding it quite irritating that you effectively did spend your time touting another product, in their forums, for their customers.

I found it annoying, and I'm nothing more than a happy customer.

Had you been more considerate in your wording and consideration for where you were, I wouldn't have taken the time to reply - and I'm not trying to cause offence - I'm simply trying to point out the lack of sensitiveness of your wording of both the subject line to the thread, and the heavy bias in your postings - that's all.

I just believe in fair play - had you asked much the same things, with a more salient subject line, and posts that didn't appear as almost thinly veiled adverts for MVW, I wouldn't have said anything.

Plenty of people with experience of other products, have posted here talking about differences, comparisons, or relative features, that haven't made me feel most uncomfortable - all I'm asking for is a bit of consideration, that's all - DRDsystems provide these forums, and staff them well for their customers, and prospective customers. And as such, these forums - I think all would agree - have been a great boon (especially compared with other vendors) and considerable benefit for the community of people using VideoReDo. Nobody has particularly suggested that mentioning or discussing other products or vendors isn't fair game - just that this thread's emphasis in wording hasn't been as much about the nature of the enquiry so much, as your choices and preference.

I was really just raging against the light, because it appeared to me that the wording (not necesasrily the enquiry, but the choice of wording) was tantamount to almost abuse of the facility.

I've said my piece, now - rightly or wrongly - this isn't with any input or context from DRDsystems - they may well decide my response(s) are in need of moderating.

[bits]

Lester Burnham,

You have expressed my feelings regarding this thread...far more concise than I could have but right on...well nearly right on...IMO it IS an advert for MVW

[tluxon]

I agree that you post was very well thought out and stated, Lester. I'm quite certain I'd feel the same way if I had your perspective.

I apologize that I didn't choose my words a little more carefully and tactfully in some of my posts, and I fully acknowledge that in hindsight I see some glaringly poor choices. However, despite your interpretation I had no intent to promote any other product here, I just didn't relate what I was hoping to find very well. I've actively participated on countless forums and usegroups for over 15 years and I'm not sure if any of them were hosted and sponsored solely by the creator/provider of the product in discussion, so I'm in unfamiliar territory. Nonetheless, I'm usually a much better communicator than I came off as here.

Please forgive me for failing to adapt to the expected (and appropriate) etiquette.

When I started this thread I had never used VideoReDo but I wanted to know how much I could get out of it. My reference point for such an editor was primarily ___ which I was very comfortable with. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have ever been in such a situation?

In hopes of avoiding a repeat offense: If your only point of reference was a great comfort and familiarity with VideoReDo and you visited a forum sponsored by a completely different editor, what kind of questions would you ask if you wondered if this different editor could simulate some of the "look and feel" you were accustomed to? Is it primarily just giving proper respect to the forum sponsor's product?

Tim

[Lester Burnham]

I agree that you post was very well thought out and stated, Lester. I'm quite certain I'd feel the same way if I had your perspective.

I apologize that I didn't choose my words a little more carefully and tactfully in some of my posts, and I fully acknowledge that in hindsight I see some glaringly poor choices. However, despite your interpretation I had no intent to promote any other product here, I just didn't relate what I was hoping to find very well. I've actively participated on countless forums and usegroups for over 15 years and I'm not sure if any of them were hosted and sponsored solely by the creator/provider of the product in discussion, so I'm in unfamiliar territory.

Well I'm a member of numerous forums - some provided by vendors (similar to here) some generic or vendor agnostic.

In vendor agnostic forums, I don't really hawk any payware - if people ask for recommendations, I'll give my choice and reasons - but in such forums, you have to be careful in your wording, too - otherwise people may suspect you of spamming - and vendor agnostic forums can be much more regimented about that, than say vendor-provided forums, like here.

And to be completely honest - and I do a fair amount of DVD work, and digital video manipulation and conversion, VideoReDo is the only payware I use for that purpose. Everything else I do - authoring, converting, encoding, burning, manipulating - I do with freeware.

Please forgive me for failing to adapt to the expected (and appropriate) etiquette.

When I started this thread I had never used VideoReDo but I wanted to know how much I could get out of it. My reference point for such an editor was primarily ___ which I was very comfortable with. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have ever been in such a situation?

Oh, I'd agree - I've seen posters here, and in other forums, who's only experience is with other vendor's products.

As you recognise, it was only the emphasis and wording that I took exception to - not truly the nature of your enquiry (ie attempting to establish whether your procedures with another product, could be easily accomodated within VideoReDo).

In hopes of avoiding a repeat offense: If your only point of reference was a great comfort and familiarity with VideoReDo and you visited a forum sponsored by a completely different editor, what kind of questions would you ask if you wondered if this different editor could simulate some of the "look and feel" you were accustomed to?

To be honest, "look and feel" isn't terribly important to me - functionality is.

As an example, I use VideoReDo. I also use virtualdub.

If I was asking about how to do specific functions, or configure the app a certain way, I'd ask about the possibilities of that - and use a subject line that went some way to describe the type of enquiry I was making. My experience, favouritism, bias, or predilection for a different vendor's app, or how wonderful it was, wouldn't come into it.

Is it primarily just giving proper respect to the forum sponsor's product?

Well I think respect and consideration come into it, certainly.

I think asking about what you want to achieve, as opposed to what you've used historically, and ideally what you prefer, is showing that you've consideration that a particular vendor is providing the support forum you're using - and it's not particularly polite or considerate, to use that opportuinity to laud the benefits and preferences of another, competitor's product in that forum.

But hey - I'm no authority, here - I'm just a regular forum member, like countless others. I was just giving my opinion. It's worth no more, or less, than you paid for it ;-)