What is Vista doing with DVR-MS?

[stony]

I have just bought a Vista laptop with Media Center and have noted some puzzling things with DVR-MS files. Not surprising, I suppose. Just about everything is puzzling with Vista.

First I should note that VRD Plus appears to convert them with ease (on the basis of just one conversion!). However, trying to use anything outside of the Vista machine to play them is so far hopeless.

Vista Windows Media Player 11 naturally plays these files fine, but either XP Windows Media Player 10 or 11 can't. Great backward compatibility, MS. Also, the otherwise reliable VLC gets the jitters with them on either platform.

I know that I should be grateful that VRD appears to handle them well, but the inability for me to read DVR-MS files on XP machines will force me to convert them every time, even when all I want to do is to view them elsewhere in the house and then delete them. Any advice on how to achieve viewing of Vista-created DVR-MS files on XP machines?

And I just won't mention the inability of Microsoft to reliably play MPEG files!

[phd]

How does VLC play them if you save them as MPEG rather than DVR-MS?

[stony]

How does VLC play them if you save them as MPEG rather than DVR-MS?

Perfectly. It seems that I will have convert all DVR-MS files to MPEG if I want to view them away from Vista, as I have said, unless someone can come up with a compatible player or some other solution. Microsoft just can't seem to recognise that we don't need them to create proprietary file formats.

The general inability of Windows Media Player, 10 or 11, XP or Vista, to play MPEG is a strange one. Either can't find the codec and nothing displayed, or vision but no sound, when VLC and other players love MPEG and display them perfectly.

I have put FFDShow on a couple of my friend's PCs so that they can play DivX and AVI files (and also MPEG files), but have baulked at putting it on mine in case it clashes with codecs I have already installed. Perhaps someone can help with this?

[zaphod7501]

Perfectly. It seems that I will have convert all DVR-MS files to MPEG if I want to view them away from Vista, as I have said, unless someone can come up with a compatible player or some other solution. Microsoft just can't seem to recognise that we don't need them to create proprietary file formats.This is done for Digital Rights Management reasons. If the original program is flagged approprietly then you don't technically have the "right" to play it on another PC. Also if you want to archive them as playable DVDs then I think you will have to convert them at some point anyway.

The general inability of Windows Media Player, 10 or 11, XP or Vista, to play MPEG is a strange one. Either can't find the codec and nothing displayed, or vision but no sound, when VLC and other players love MPEG and display them perfectly. In the past Windows has always required you to install a third party DVD player for licensing reasons. Mpegs just happen to fall under this requirement.

I have put FFDShow on a couple of my friend's PCs so that they can play DivX and AVI files (and also MPEG files), but have baulked at putting it on mine in case it clashes with codecs I have already installed. Perhaps someone can help with this?If you are concerned about codecs then Media Player Classic would be a good installation. It runs with it's own built-in codecs and filters (unless you choose otherwise) and does not pass them on to other applications.

[stony]

If you are concerned about codecs then Media Player Classic would be a good installation.

I have installed this player and it seems very similar to VLC. Like VLC, it can display Vista DVR-MS files on an XP PC, but the vision is jerky and there is no sound.

Many people online are looking for a codec to allow them to view DVR-MS on XP PCs on their network, but there doesn't seem to be a solution. Microsoft is offering to sell a 'compatible DVD encoder' that would allow files 'playable at home to be played at work', but I am doubtful that this would be a goer. MS 'solutions' rarely work in my experience. Anyway, most users already have a DVD encoder installed. Does anyone know what MS is exactly offering?

[stony]

Does the lack of further responses indicate that there perhaps are no easy ways to view Vista MCE DVR-MS files on XP machines other than by first converting them to a friendly format?

[zaphod7501]

I forgot all about these suggestions since I don't run XP and I don't know how well these will work but there is an update from Microsoft about this : Q810243

If that does not work then you can also do a search for three files: sbe.dll, sbeio.dll, encdec.dll. These are the stream buffer engine files needed for DVR-MS playback. If present (or added to \system32) they can be manually registered.

It is possible that even if the MS update works, there may be some files that will play and some that won't, depending on the recording flags inserted at the time of recording. I always hesitate to offer advice on an operating system or software that I don't use (or like) myself but the XP people didn't chime in here. I only know of this from my attempts to use the DVR-MS mux on a Win2000 system with GB-PVR.

[stony]

I forgot all about these suggestions since I don't run XP and I don't know how well these will work but there is an update from Microsoft about this : Q810243.

Thanks, but this seems to relate to XP SP1 and MCE. I don't have MCE on my XP machines, and I am usually a little wary of adding Microsoft 'patches' of this kind.

I am looking for a simple solution: a media player that replays most DVR-MS files with both picture and sound.

If no such beast exits, I will have to try the Microsoft route.

[zaphod7501]

The three dll's may already be present on any XP PC. (not just MCE editions) You can just register them manually and deregister them later. (I think only sbe.dll and encdec.dll have to be registered) They should allow Window's Media Player to play the DVR-MS files.

The MS update installs the latest version of the DLLs, verifies XP as the OS, and registers the files.

If you want to create DVDs of your content then you're going to have to convert at some point anyway.

[phd]

Try mplayer.
http://www.mplayerhq.hu/design7/dload.html

It plays DVR-MS files. Comes with its own codecs.

[bitter_old_man]

If you want a GUI for mplayer, try rulesPlayer.

http://rulesplayer.lessequal.com/

It will download mplayer and its codecs during installation.

Barry

[phd]

@Barry:

The mplayer that I referenced has a GUI. Do you know the difference between the 2?

[stony]

Try mplayer. It plays DVR-MS files. Comes with its own codecs.

Thanks, Pat. I tried the link, but building a program from bits all seems a bit complicated to me.

Instead I downloaded something that called itself 'MPlayer for Windows', which had a front end just like other players, but it just couldn't handle DVR-MS files.

Can you please advise me how you produced an 'MPlayer' that reads these damned files.

[phd]

I DL the file "MPlayer-1.0rc1-gui.zip"

I unzipped it and double-clicked on the file "gmplayer.exe"

[stony]

gmplayer.exe

Tried this one and the same disappointing result. Loads of errors reported.

Perhaps it is because the files are coming from Vista Media Center. No player I have tried so far in XP wants anything to do with DVR-MS. Very frustrating. (I don't have XP Media Center as a comparison.)

I can, of course, easily convert these files to MPEG using VRD, but I can't see why I can't also have the option of viewing them on an XP PC, especially when a program is ad-free.

Earlier today I tried to install ATI Media Center, which is said to handle DVR-MS, but couldn't install it because my ATI installation CD didn't have the ATI DVD encoder on it. It's Cyberlink's anyway! And I have that on my PC, of course. To make matters worse, I actually have two Radeon 9600s, but that still didn't get me in the good books with ATI.

[phd]

What kind of errors are you getting with mplayer?

I tried VRD created DVR-MS files here with mplayer and they worked fine.

What are your file properties? Press Ctrl+L

[bitter_old_man]

@Barry:

The mplayer that I referenced has a GUI. Do you know the difference between the 2?Pat, I don't know the difference. When I tried mplayer thousands of years ago, I had the command line version. I didn't know there was another GUI.

Barry

[stony]

What kind of errors are you getting with mplayer?

I have already uninstalled MPlayer, but the error list was impressive (too many headers was one repetitive mantra) and the cacophony that accompanied a frozen first frame less so. Just a woeful attempt to open a video file.

I am deciding whether it is worth chasing ATI File Player, because it seems to me that DVR-MS files generated by Vista WMC just aren't compatible with any media player operating under XP. Looks like I will have to be content with converting with VRD and forget about a 'quickview' in XP.

[marko]

Perfectly. It seems that I will have convert all DVR-MS files to MPEG if I want to view them away from Vista, as I have said, unless someone can come up with a compatible player or some other solution. Microsoft just can't seem to recognise that we don't need them to create proprietary file formats.

The general inability of Windows Media Player, 10 or 11, XP or Vista, to play MPEG is a strange one. Either can't find the codec and nothing displayed, or vision but no sound, when VLC and other players love MPEG and display them perfectly.


More bad Vista news: Mpeg affected by Vista

I have a Rapsody N35 Media Player/Center which plays Mpeg2 (and other) formats - but not DRM'ed files.
If I use Videoredo on my XP machine to convert dvr-ms to mpeg files the resulting mpeg can be played by the N35.
However if I ReDo the same file to mpeg on my Vista machine the N35 is not able to play the resulting mpeg file.

Has vista DRM'ed the mpeg file?? seems likely.

bummer!!

[phd]

If the file had DRM, VideoReDo would not be able to edit it.

[marko]

If the file had DRM, VideoReDo would not be able to edit it.

thanks phd,

So if no DRM is involved then

VideoRedo does something different on Vista to what it does on XP??

The dvr-ms recording was recorded on vista and copied to the XP machine.

VideoRedo to Mpeg on vista machine produces a file which the N35 cannot play.
VideoRedo to Mpeg on XP machine produces a file which the N35 plays.

Is VideoRedo utilising external codecs which are different on the two OSes perhaps ?
More fundamentally can it be sorted??

thanks,
marko

[phd]

VideoReDo uses its own codec.

[marko]

VideoReDo uses its own codec.
Ok thanks PHD,

Tried another Vista dvr-ms recording in VideoRedo (on Vista) to mpeg. - It didnt play on the N35.

Tried same recording in VideoRedo (on Vista) to .ts format. VideoRedo wont process the file - an alert saying it may contain 'Restricted Content' appears.

Any thoughts?

[HyperReality]

What happens if, on Vista, you go:

Vista dvr-ms recording, export from VRD on Vista to .mpg, load the mpg into VRD?

Does the file mpg file open in VRD okay?

What about if you resave the .mpg file again (as a .mpg)? Does VRD report any errors on save? Does the second .mpg file play on the N35?

You might also want to turn on full logging in VRD on Vista, load a Vista dvr-ms files into VRD, output to .mpg. Then do _exactly_ the same thing on XP (same dvr-ms file, same VRD settings, same VRD build, etc) and see whether there is anything different in the log files. Theoretically, I suppose they should be identical, given the same settings, VRD version, and input file.

If the log files show differences, I recommend you email them to support@videoredo.com, along with a reference to this thread.

[marko]

@HyperReality, Thanks for thinking about this with me

What happens if, on Vista, you go:

Vista dvr-ms recording, export from VRD on Vista to .mpg, load the mpg into VRD?

Does the file mpg file open in VRD okay?

Yes the file opens in VRD on Vista!!


What about if you resave the .mpg file again (as a .mpg)? Does VRD report any errors on save? Does the second .mpg file play on the N35?

No Errors reported,
YESSS!!!! the the second mpeg plays on my N35!! -Result!!

I also did a VRD-> .TS from the second mpeg - worked a treat - also plays on N35.

Retried the original dvr-ms file (VRD -> .TS)to get the exact error message it is
Mpeg stream error: File may be DVR-MS "restricted content"


You might also want to turn on full logging in VRD on Vista, load a Vista dvr-ms files into VRD, output to .mpg. Then do _exactly_ the same thing on XP (same dvr-ms file, same VRD settings, same VRD build, etc) and see whether there is anything different in the log files. Theoretically, I suppose they should be identical, given the same settings, VRD version, and input file.

If the log files show differences, I recommend you email them to support@videoredo.com, along with a reference to this thread.

I will do this test next time to see if that sheds any light on why it doesnt quite work fisrt time.

Thanks for the assistance - I was horrified at the thought of downgrading Vista to Xp (and then having to pay for another XP licence!!)

regards,
marko

[marko]

I have replied to this but the reply was sent to the moderators for some reason and seems to have been lost (maybe I am too impatient)

[HyperReality]

You should see the post now.

It's above my pay grade to speculate why dvr-ms->mpg results in an mpg that doesnt play on the N35, and dvr-ms->ts wont work at all, but taking that VRD output mpg -> mpg (or ts) results in something that plays on the N35.

I suggest that you open up a support ticket with support@videoredo.com and see if the developers can shed some light on the problem.

[stony]

Having started this topic I have come to the firm conclusion that using MCE to record TV on my HP Vista laptop is perfectly fine if I simply want to view the resulting DVR-MS files on that machine. However, if I want to view these files on an XP machine I need first to convert them to MPEG-2 using VRD. Unlike Marko, I have not had any trouble with viewing VRD-converted MPG files on an XP machine, but I may have converted them on the XP machine and not the Vista one.

This being the case, perhaps there is another tack: use something else to drive the HP ExpressCard DVB-T TV Tuner on my HP laptop. This is really off the forum theme, being anti-MCE, but I would be grateful if anyone can tell me whether they know of an alternative to MCE where MCE has been adopted by a PC manufacturer.

I have considered Nero 7, which enables TV watching and recording, but my ExpressCard tuner is not listed by Ahead as being compatible with Nero 7, and I despair ever getting a reply from Ahead support as to whether it is compatible or not. Furthermore, my reading of reviews of and comments on Nero 7 is that it is an unwieldy, memory-hogging beast and very much a work in progress.

Am I being too ambitious, or is there an alternative to MCE for me? I would be very grateful for some informed opinion. Or suggestions where I might go to find out.

[Tudor]

I am using a Vista Ultimate machine and use WebScheduler to record TV programmes. WebScheduler allows recording as TS (full stream), TS-MUX (one stream only) and also DVR-MS. I have now gone over to recording using DVR-MS and have no problems.
All recorded material will play, without editing, using Media Centre, will edit using VideoReDo and resulting MPG file will play ok.

[zaphod7501]

I would be grateful if anyone can tell me whether they know of an alternative to MCE where MCE has been adopted by a PC manufacturer.
MCE is just an interface and it can be turned off to allow third party applications to control a tuner device as well as the native applications that will operate the device. Following is an example that allows Hauppauge's WinTV2000 to control their hardware cards. You can create a .bat file that just shuts down MCE also. You will need to download the software that you want to use and there should be a lot of choices depending on the hardware that you have installed. Some applications can be run along with MCE, some require MCE to be turned off.
From shs at shspvr.comThe easiest way to do this is by way of a batch file like bat or cmd.
Example Code:
@ECHO OFF
CLS
ECHO Closing Media Center Services...
net stop ehrecvr
net stop ehsched
CLS
ECHO Starting WinTV2000...
start /wait C:\Progra~1\WinTV\WinTV2K.EXE -cg
CLS
ECHO Restarting Media Center Services...
net start ehrecvr
net start ehsched

This stops the services, runs WinTV2000. When you close WinTV2000 the
services are restarted (so MCE timer recordings can proceed if required).

[stony]

I am using a Vista Ultimate machine and use WebScheduler to record TV programmes.

Thanks, Tudor.

I have downloaded Web Scheduler and have scanned the local channels. The problem is, what do I do now?

Am I supposed to view channels with WS, or simply schedule them for recording?

Update: I opened MCE and the programs started to splutter, so I quickly uninstalled WS. All OK again.

Sorry for my ignorance, but WS doesn't seem easy to comprehend.

I guess I am looking for a complete alternative to MCE: watching and recording.

I know that MCE can be turned off by a second tuner card. I installed a WinFast USB dongle on my daughter's 'multimedia' PC and it turned off MCE and acted as a replacement. Which was very welcome, since, against my advice, she bought a Dell machine and the mighty Dell supplied an analogue card! Dell doesn't 'currently supply digital TV cards' (wow, what a cutting-edge company).

So, presumably, if I add a USB dongle and remove my ExpressCard, I can achieve MPG recording in a flash. But I am naturally wanting to keep the HP card but not use MCE with it.

Sorry for my ignorance about WS. I would be grateful for a 'heads-up'.

[stony]

MCE is just an interface and it can be turned off to allow third party applications to control a tuner device ...

That is the million-dollar question for me: what third-party applications?

I have trialled Nero 7 today and it looked very promising, but a miss is as good as a mile.

Nero Home recognised my HP ExpressCard (called it a DiBcom MOD3000 TV receiver) and scanned the local channels. However, live TV was jerky, with both picture and sound, which was most disappointing. A test recording of a poorly displayed section, on the other hand, turned out to be rock solid. For the first time I was able to get some sort of EPG. There is only one decent EPG available in Australia and it is not free. Presumably Nero was getting at the stations' info at some depth, which other TV software programs, including MCE, don't seem to be able to do.

I am wondering whether MCE is conflicting with live TV being displayed under Nero Home? Do I need to create a BAT or CMD file closing MCE and starting Nero Home, as you have suggested?

Nero Home looks and operates too much like MCE for my liking, as I just want a simple program that displays and records TV, without all the extras. That is, the type of controlling software that comes with all TV cards and dongles.

So, unless I can get Nero Home to display TV as well as MCE can, I am still on the lookout for a utility that will enable me to record directly in MPEG.

[zaphod7501]

If MCE can use the card then it has a hardware encoder. Many third party applications can't access the encoder and Nero may be running in software mode. This could account for the jerky picture. Using the encoder generally requires purchasing an SDK license from the card manufacturer. They could also be recording with the encoder but running in software mode for viewing to allow things like gameplay from a PS2, etc which is not possible through an encoder due to a 3 second lag. Running in a software viewing mode will require a good processor, a fair amount of Ram, and a high end video processor. Recording with an encoder requires none of that.

You're going to have to research the card for software options. Window's Device Manager should give you definitive info on the actual manufacturer and model of the card which is necessary to find applications. GB-PVR might be a good possibility.

[Tudor]

I agree WebSchuduler is not easy to understand, but it's a very powerfull schuduling and recording tool. It does not provide ANY way of viewing the recorded files. Try this link for info, a lot of reading I'm afraid: http://forums.dvbowners.com/index.php?showforum=28
I do not know your location, I'm in the UK. I can provide much detail if you are in the UK, especially about intergration of the Radio Times EPG.
The DNTV card I'm using has dual tuners and was imported from Australia. It uses a Philips SAA7162 tuner which I think is also used on the KWorld card. I have one tuner asigned to MCE and one to WebScheduler, I have had both tuners asigned to both programs without any problems.

[stony]

I do not know your location, I'm in the UK.

Thanks, Tudor. Like your card I am from Down Under.

As I have said elsewhere, I am really looking for a complete alternative to MCE: viewing and recording (in MPG and not DVR-MS).

Nero Home and GB-PVR are not the answer it seems. It looks as if the bonus ExpressCard supplied by HP (valued at $99) might have to be ditched and a Leadtek dongle (valued at $88 at a computer fair) or similar used instead. At least I will know that the controlling software will fully recognise the tuner.

I would have thought that an HP ExpressCard DVB-T TV Tuner (aka DiBcom MOD3000 TV Receiver) would be listed among supported tuners for some viewing-recording controlling software somewhere, but apparently not (so far at least).

[HyperReality]

The DNTV card I'm using has dual tuners and was imported from Australia. It uses a Philips SAA7162 tuner which I think is also used on the KWorld card.
Just so there is no confusion for other readers, AFAICT your DNTV card is the KWorld PE310 card - DigitalNow just rebadge cards bought from manufacturers in Taiwan, China and Europe.

[stony]

I am really looking for a complete alternative to MCE: viewing and recording (in MPG and not DVR-MS).

I feel a bit of a goose, folks. The answer was right under my nose all the time. My only defence is that HP Support (somewhere in Asia), like me, also thought that HP Quickplay preinstalled on my Pavilion laptop was only for playing audio. I had called a couple of times on the subject of driving the HP card directly and had basically been fobbed off, saying it was up to me to find a suitable third-party solution.

Not so. Quickplay can also be used to watch and record TV! I delved into the user guide for the TV card and was encouraged to give the TV side of Quickplay a go. (It was presented as what should be used if MCE is not available, whereas it should have been stressed that it could be used even if MCE is available.) HP Support was also doing its own research simultaneously. It is often said that computer knowledge is sometimes gained bit by bit.

Hence the HP ExpressCard tuner does have its own software: it is called HP Quickplay. Quite a neat layout as well. Only one blip: choosing 4:3 gets 16:9 and vice versa. One can't have it all. But I do have MPG files.

Sorry for bothering you all on this matter. Perhaps I have been some help to any other HP laptop users on the forum.

[marko]

thanks phd,

So if no DRM is involved then

VideoRedo does something different on Vista to what it does on XP??

The dvr-ms recording was recorded on vista and copied to the XP machine.

VideoRedo to Mpeg on vista machine produces a file which the N35 cannot play.
VideoRedo to Mpeg on XP machine produces a file which the N35 plays.



Pleased to report this problem has disappeared on Vista - possibly due to Vista Automatic updates. The N35 now plays filrst time dvr-ms conversions from the Vista machine.

regards,

marko

[conradg]

Does the lack of further responses indicate that there perhaps are no easy ways to view Vista MCE DVR-MS files on XP machines other than by first converting them to a friendly format?

I am using media player 11.0.5721.5230 accessing a file share on my vista MCE server. The files play just fine on my XP machine while playing on my vista MCE Server.? The only things that I cannot do is play the files while they are being recorded, other wise works 100%

[Jarod]

I am using media player 11.0.5721.5230 accessing a file share on my vista MCE server. The files play just fine on my XP machine while playing on my vista MCE Server.? The only things that I cannot do is play the files while they are being recorded, other wise works 100%

HI please tell me more about the codec package you're using on the XP machine? Or if u changed something on the Vista Media Center ??

I had XP Media center, and i was able to read (with media player and VLC) the dvr-ms files on XP, since i have Vista Media Center it doesn't work anymore on both players (and more as i read in this forum).

Please help