Yep. Audio sync problems... suggestions?

[JohnnyD]

first of all: I really like VideoReDo, registered it today.

Nevertheless: I'm using a Hauppauge PVR 350 (PAL) to capture TV programs, they play fine on my PC, they're fine after editing them with VideoReDo, still on my PC, but: when I put the edited result on a DVD, the material goes gradually out of sync when I play it on my home DVD player :(

I use Ulead DVD moviefactory SE to author my DVD's. Using this program, I can do two things:
- make a DVD with remux (= edit & author with Ulead)
- make a DVD without remux. (= edit with VideoReDo and author with Ulead)

I don't like the first option, it takes quite a long time (even on a P4 2800) and it seems to me that the video quality is not as good as the original material. The second option is quick and gives unaltered video quality. Only, the sound goes out of sync when I play the DVD on my home DVD player. Mind you, the first option means I edit the captured movie with Ulead and write it to DVD with Ulead. It gives me (sometimes) ugly video, but the lip-sync is perfect!

The only conclusion I can think of, is that the quality of my captured PVR350-material is not very good and that Ulead is able to "repair" it... It would be very nice if VideoReDo could do the same...

A bit of info:
video:
- capture format: 720x576 (PAL)
- encoding: MPEG2
- Stream ID: xE0
- Bit Rate: 6200 Mbps

audio:
- Stream ID: xC0
- Bit Rate: 384 Kbps
- Sample rate: 48000 Hz

Some questions:
- What is the best format/stream type/audio type to capture with, using a PVR350? The only restriction is, that I want to put 100 minutes of video on one DVD.
- Is there a way (without paying lots of money!) to analyse your mpeg file, to detect video/audio errors?

I know that my info is incomplete, if you think you can help me and you need more info, please let me know...

Cheers,
JohnnyD

[JohnnyD]

Sorry, something I overlooked:

The video info I gave came from an edited file from VideoReDo; the settings during capturing with my PVR350 are a tiny bit different:
- Before editing, the bitrate is 4800/6000 kbps Peak VBR (PVR350)
- After editing the bitrate is 6200 kbps (VideoReDo). No mentioning about VBR (meaning CBR?)

Couldn't that confuse my home DVD player, making it go out of sync?

Again: My original material is captured with a VBR of 4800, 6000 kbps Peak and the material I edited with VideoReDo has a bitrate of 6200 kbps.

[DanR]

You should not have this problem! I use VideoReDo with Digital Movie Factory (DMF2) all the time (PVR250 with VBR, NTSC) without any problems. There should be no need to remux. That being said, since you have a sync problem we need to get to the bottom of it.

1) Are you using frame accurate (FA) or GOP mode editing? (set on Tools>Options>General).

2) Do you have the Movie Factory compatability box checked? (set on Tools>Options>General). Try switching this parameter to see if it makes a difference.

3) VideoReDo will correct about 95%+ of the sync errors from your original stream. In fact, will correct files that would normally throw DMF out of sync. Which version of DMF SE are you using?

[JohnnyD]

it would be very nice not to have these problems :-)

1) "Enable Frame accurate editing" is checked
2) "Output Streams for Movie Factory" is checked
3) I'm using "Ulead DVD MovieFactory SE", which came with my PVR350. It doesn't give version-info but the version of "DVDWizd.exe" is 1.0.0.5, so I assume that it's DVD MovieFactory 1.0. I'll try switching the compatibility-setting, I'll let you know...

[phd]

JohnnyD,

It sounds like you've got DMF1.

You mentioned:
I use Ulead DVD moviefactory SE to author my DVD's. Using this program, I can do two things:
- make a DVD with remux (= edit & author with Ulead)
- make a DVD without remux. (= edit with VideoReDo and author with Ulead)

Is the editing you're doing with the VideoToolbox of DMF? If it is are you seeing the video play as its rendering and outputting? If you do not see a black screen or a still frame, it is rerendering the complete video and will take a long time. You have to read the clip properties in VideoToolbox to see what Ulead thinks they are (the numbers are usually different from what other external programs say they are), and then create a profile to match. Sometimes you have to further fiddle with it. The display screen should be black if you have corrctly matched output parameters to the clip parameters. This is only for DMF not VideoReDo.

The problem with DMF1 is that it is fairly old and uses a sifferent MPEG codec than the current engine which is MPEG.NOW in DMF2 and DMF3. I have found that even some of my unedited PVR files do not load into DMF1 or if they do and they are very slow to load in, there will be a problem with creating a DVD.

I also have DMF2 which does not have this problem. DMF2 recognizes a wider variety of MPEG2 files due to the newer rendering engine. The ones that DMF1 rejects or has problems with, DMF2 accepts and creates DVDs with no audio sync problems.

I got DMF1 to work better with WinTV files by trying different capture parameters and seeing which one worked best for DVD creation. The easiest solution may be to upgrade to DMF2 or DMF3.

They do have a free trial at the Ulead website so you can see if this immediately corrects the problem.

[JohnnyD]

thanks phd, I'll try...

for my information: why should DMF1 have a perfect matching profile? Will it stop remuxing?

furthermore I've started experimenting with different settings, it's quite time consuming so I'm doing all kinds of other things in between, so it might be a while, but I'm already getting some (puzzling?) results... :)

[phd]

That's why it may not be worth the hassle of fiddling around with DMF1. Try DMF2 trial version. (More commentary about DMF2 below.)

In DMF1, in the video toolbox (the part that does capture and editing) if you get a perfect matching profile it will stop remuxing and go a lot quicker. The way you can tell is if the video screen in the toolbox remains black or has a static image. If you see the video moving while it is outputting, the file is being rerendered. Videoredo will edit and output the file without remuxing so its quicker and easier than this.

I have found it to be a pain sometimes to create one for DMF1 toolbox. What I wound up doing was creating a different capture profile in WinTV.

DMF2 seems to take all of my files without a problem, that's why I recommended giving it a try with a free trial download from the Ulead website. You may not have to change your capture profile at all.

Here is what speeds up authoring in DMF2 for me.
1 - Load a Videoredo edited clip
2 - Right click on the file and select proprties. Write down all the info .
3 - Select project properties. Make a new profile exactly matching the clip properties with one exception. Add 500 to the bit rate. e.g. if it said 6000 in the clip properties, make it 6500. Save the new project template and use that one.
4 - Make sure you select "Do not convert Compliant files."

I always burn to a hard drive folder first and then burn to a DVD. This prevents coasters. There seems to be some issue with DMF burning directly to a DVD. I don't know what it is but this method works.

There is also something in the newer Ulead programs (not DMF1) where you can add a line to the [VIODRIVER] section - CloseAudioDTR=1
This also fixes A/V sync problems.

Go to the Ulead forum and do a search for more info on this.

Let me know how you make out.

[Anonymous]

I'll keep in touch, but it might be a couple of days...

[JohnnyD]

...eh, that was me, forgot to log in... :oops:

[mostlyfodder]

dan-

did you guys ever get to the bottom of the audio sync problem johnny mentioned in his 1st post in this thread?

one of my pc's has sync problems when playing a dvd i made, but another pc has absolutely perfect sync. i'm using videoredo on sagetv-recorded mpegs and authoring with ulead movie studio 3.

both pc's are running powerdvd player. any ideas what could be causing this?

-fodder

[DanR]

did you guys ever get to the bottom of the audio sync problem johnny mentioned in his 1st post in this thread?I don't recall the solution, maybe JohnnyD will remember.

If the exact same DVD has sync issues on one PC and not on another, the first thing I'd look at is the hardware configuration. What is different about the machines, especially the graphics and/or sound card.

Is the sync off by a fixed amount from the beginning of the DVD or does the sync offset grow the further you go into the program?

Finally, the ultimate test is how does the DVD play on a standalone player.

[mostlyfodder]

OK, I'Ll have to get back to you on some of those. i don't even own a stand-alone dvd player; both are media pc's. i was surprised to see the difference b/w two pc's anyhow. i'll also test some additional burned dvd's and see if the problem's reproduced across multiple burns.

the graphics & sound cards are different, although both use some form of ATI for output. and, both have mobo-included audio, one from asus, and the other from shuttle.

i've generally been spared these kinds of audio sync issues with the combo of sage & videoredo & ulead authoring. i'll re-post after more tests. thanks,
fodder

ps- no need to reply. i'll check other vids. and re-post if it's a reproduceable problem. i know i've noticed the problem occasionally in sagetv (i.e. before videoredo is even used.) thanks-

[JohnnyD]

...it's been a while...

The answer still isn't definitive, but it looks as if my A/V sync problems disappear when I use DMF3. I did change several parameters at once, so I still have to do some research, but I'm going to find out.

First solution for this moment: use DMF3 instead of DMF1 SE for authoring.

[Gary]

JohnnyD,

Are you using the default DVD presets in the Win TV program? If so, those use "DVD" rather than "Program" output stream, which is known source of audio/video sync problems with the Hauppauge PVR. You need to make up your own presets using ONLY "Program" for the output stream and your sync problems will likely go away.

[bitter_old_man]

I use "DVD Special 2" (output type 14). This requires changing the 4th byte of a preset to 0E.

Barry

[JohnnyD]

Gary, thanks for your advice. I used to capture in Program stream mode; I had no sync problems during playback on my PC, but the trouble began as soon as I recorded the stuff to a DVD, which I then played in my home DVD player. (must admit I never tried to play the recorded DVD in my PC. Mm, I wonder what the result would be...).

To get rid of the sync problems, I changed 3 things at once (*really* well thougt out):

1) Changed audio bitrate from 384 to 224 Kbit/s
2) Changed capture mode from "program stream" to "DVD" (It's there for *some* reason, isn't it?)
3) Authored with DMF3 instead of DMF1 SE (By the way, it seems that a lot of Hauppauge PVR 350's came with DMF2 SE, does anyone know how to obtain this copy? I tried Hauppauge, but they state that they're willing to help, but, as everything is shrinkwrapped, they can't help me to get a replacement for my DMF1 SE... well, I could try, couldn't I? :lol: )
(and no, I'm not interested in "warez")

I still have some really minor sync issues, so I will try changing the capture mode back to "program stream", maybe those issues will disappear forgood!

Anyone any suggestions about the audio bitrate? Could capturing at 384 Kbit cause trouble?

[JohnnyD]

Barry, why did you change tot "DVD special 2"? Did it solve anything?

[phd]

1) I record at 384 audio without a problem
2) Program stream is generally recommended for recording. It seems to work better. I don't remember the technical reasons. Check out the SHSPVR website.
3) Here in the US, once Ulead relleases a new version, the older versions are heavily discounted. For example a brand new shrink-wrapped version of Media Studio Pro 6.5 Director's cut was selling at a recent computer show for $20. Also look out for sales. At a computer store this week (CompUSA), they are selling Ulead DMF3 Disk Creator for $30 after rebates.

[DanR]

I've never noticed difference in sync related to audio bitrates. There's generally no need to use a bitrate higher than 192-256kb since that is still higher than the bandwdith of the source signal. Likewise there's no need to use very high bitrates when capturing video. I use 4MB-6MB VBR with 256KB audio. Rarely have a sync problem and when I do they are intermittment and VideoReDo can correct them.

I recommend people use the lowest video bitrate they can tolerate as it significantly reduces the load on the system during recording.

I also haven't seen any difference in the file format between Hauppauge's Progrm Stream and DVD Stream.

[Gary]

JohnnyD,

I use an audio bitrate of 384 with my Hauppauge PVR-250 without any audio sync problems. Only when using the DVD settings did I run into sync issues, unless I was capping from poor video tape. I use 2 Time Base Correctors here, so that tends to stop frame drops.

I have to say that Dan has really made a GREAT piece of software in VideoReDo. I do many video conversions, and there are some tapes, mostly colorized stuff that a TBC will cause problems with. On those, the Hauppauge will drop frames right and left, but even a file tons of frame drops will stay in sync once edited by VideoReDo!

[bitter_old_man]

JohnnyD,

I started using it when there was a problem with "recycled frames". See this thread for more info: http://www.shspvr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18288
At the time someone posted this which was apparently from Hauppauge: "Certainly the "DVD special 2" stream is the one that gets most of the attention from the Conexant FW guys; it's the one that's used by
MediaCenter, hence the most beat up by OEM testers." (FW = firmware)

If you're using the latest drivers, live TV is set for DVD Special 2.

Barry