Is TVSuite over-compressing to DVD?

[Roy22]

Just getting started with TV Suite. Like it so far, but is the following problem my mistake or the software's...?

When burning a 2hr film (imported from a Humax PVR in Transport Stream format) onto a 4.7 Gb DVD-R, the TVSuite of course points out that recoding is needed.

That's fine, but the finished DVD seems to have used only 2Gb of the available 4.7Gb. It plays fine, but surely losing over half of the available disk space means video quality is degraded more than needed to fit?

Am I missing something, or does TVSuite only recode in fairly 'coarse' steps? Previously I've used Nero 7, which I'm fairly sure tends to use most of the available disk space whenever it burns. A 2hr film might be 2 or 3Gb in TS format, and would 'expand' to most of the 4.7Gb in Nero's recoding. Any ideas?

[DanR]

There are two issues here.

1) Yes, we are over compressing. This will be fixed in the first update release do out in the next two weeks. You'll also see it later this week on the beta section of our forum.

2) You can reduce the over compression by clicking on Shift+Tools>Options. Near the bottom you'll see a parameter "Recode initial quant x 100". Set it to between 100 and 200 and it will compress less.

3) If you intiial film is only 2-3gb then there really isn't much need to create a larger output file.

[Roy22]

Dan,

Many thanks for the quick reply, it's rare to get answers so promptly!

Can I assume that a value of 100 means the least compression?

And when the updates follow, should I change this parameter back to 400, or will the update reset this?

I take your point re expanding the file. I've never quite understood how a 2Gb mpeg file can become 4.7Gb (whilst being told quality has been reduced by recoding from say 'Excellent' to just 'Good') when Nero 7 finally burns it to DVD. Getting bigger but quality going down?! Hence my interest in TV Suite.

[knnirs]

I also observe the over-compression. I am very new to this technology, but have been using trial and error to put my .ts files of 8 to 10 GB on DVD's.
I used SVC2DVD to shrink the .ts files from 8GB to 4.6GB .mpg files. I then used Nero 6 to burn these files to DVD.
When I learned about the TV Suite of VideoReDo, I purcahased the update, and I tested it on one file. I used the default values for most options and found that it took 190 minutes to complete the process. I now have a DVD that works but it is only using 60% of the capacity, and I prefer the video from the Nero burns.
I will try changing the 400 to a smaller value, but what should I choose?
I would like to be able to use the VideoReDo to perform the compression and burning.

[DanR]

Change it to 100. This parameter will be much less relavent in a couple weeks as we tweak the compression algorithm.

[knnirs]

Dan,
I believe you are providing a simple answer to a more complex problem.
What should be the "Data frames", default is 3, should I change to 5?
What about the "Output packet length MPEG2", default is 2028. Don't I need at least 4600?

Many thanks for a good start. I hope I can use this program to burn a DVD with 4.65 GB of video.

[DanR]

Dan,
I believe you are providing a simple answer to a more complex problem.
What should be the "Data frames", default is 3, should I change to 5?
What about the "Output packet length MPEG2", default is 2028. Don't I need at least 4600?

Many thanks for a good start. I hope I can use this program to burn a DVD with 4.65 GB of video.

No to both. Data frames has nothing to do with compression, and Output packet length is ignored with creating DVDs. All DVDs use a packet length of 2028, its the standard. Actually the value is 2048, but that includes a system header.

[knnirs]

No to both. Data frames has nothing to do with compression, and Output packet length is ignored with creating DVDs. All DVDs use a packet length of 2028, its the standard. Actually the value is 2048, but that includes a system header.

Does this mean that I can not burn a DVD with more than 2048 MB?

I have no problem burning a video of 4620 MB with Nero.

I am testing a run with the 100 setting. It appears this will take 4 hours to know an answer.

[DanR]

Does this mean that I can not burn a DVD with more than 2048 MB?
The 2028 (2048) has nothing to do with size of the video. VideoReDo can create VIDEO_TS folders of any size.

[Anole]

Does this mean that I can not burn a DVD with more than 2048 MB?
I have no problem burning a video of 4620 MB with Nero.

- It's not 2048 MB.
- DVD size is unrelated.
- DVDs are built up of VOB files which are approximately 1gb in size.
- TV Suite should be able to build double-layer DVDs which are 8+gb.

edit:
oops, too slow on the retort again; Dan beat me to it! :)

[knnirs]

- It's not 2048 MB.
- DVD size is unrelated.
- DVDs are built up of VOB files which are approximately 1gb in size.
- TV Suite should be able to build double-layer DVDs which are 8+gb.

edit:
oops, too slow on the retort again; Dan beat me to it! :)

I'll respond to your response.
I still have not found a way to use TV Suite to convert an 8 GB .ts video file to a video file of approximately 4.6 GB for burning to the DVD.
I changed the 400 value to 100, and the only difference seemed to be it took longer to do the conversion. The final file has three VTS_01 files as shown in the first image. The second image is from a DVD of a similar file, but burned with Nero 6 as explained earlier. Note it has five VTS_01 files.
What is the parameter to be changed to get two more VTS_01 files from the TV Suite conversion?

[Anole]

There are two issues here.

1) Yes, we are over compressing. This will be fixed in the first update release do out in the next two weeks. You'll also see it later this week on the beta section of our forum.
\
Since the other work-around didn't seem to solve the problem, I think the above answer is what we are left with.

[knnirs]

Since the other work-around didn't seem to solve the problem, I think the above answer is what we are left with.
How do I obtain access to the Beta downloads?
What is the password?
I wish to participate in the evaluation of possible changes.

[Anole]

There's a link at the top of the BETA (http://www.videoredo.net/msgBoard/forumdisplay.php?f=24)section in the forum.
However, there isn't anything yet available.

Also, the company may choose to not mingle BETA for TV Suite with the VideoReDo product.
When a TVS beta comes out, it's possible they'll open a new area on the forum.

I haven't gotten a memo on that, yet. :D

[191]

Just getting started with TV Suite. Like it so far, but is the following problem my mistake or the software's...?

That's fine, but the finished DVD seems to have used only 2Gb of the available 4.7Gb. It plays fine, but surely losing over half of the available disk space means video quality is degraded more than needed to fit?

Am I missing something, or does TVSuite only recode in fairly 'coarse' steps? Previously I've used Nero 7, which I'm fairly sure tends to use most of the available disk space whenever it burns.

I am like the poster above. I tried twice to tweak the settings to take advantage of the full capacity of a 4.7GB disc, 3 hours later and nothing changed.

I look forward to this being rectified in the next update. Until then I'll stick with nero and keep using dvd suite as a trial. :)

[Taipan]

I have just tried the latest Beta version, and I think that VRD-TVS is still over-estimating the disk space required.....:confused:

For example, I just processed 2 DVB-T files and VRD-TVS claimed that it would require 4.85GB - so I changed the settings to a double-sided DVD and allowed VRD to complete the exercise, without doing any re-coding. As I suspected, the finished DVD would easily fit on a single-sided DVD - in fact the final size was just 4.15 GB ....

Also, it appears that when VRD-TVS does re-code, it selects a new bit-rate that is way too low, so that the final DVD is only about 75% used. I would expect that VRD-TVS would do something similar to DVD Shrink and use the highest bit-rate possible to use as much of the available DVD space as possible?

[DanR]

DVB-T are transport stream files which are broadcast at a constant bit rate which means there will be some null packets stuffed into the stream to keep the constant bit rate. When we estiamte the size, we don't know what % of the source video are these empty packets which will not be passed onto the dvd, and which is real data.

You can initially save to mpg and then author the size estimate should be much more accurate.

[Taipan]

To be more specific, this is what I did:-

I did a "quick stream fix" on each file, outputting as an mpg, with "Output empty NAV packets" selected.

File 1 was 2.06 GB

File 2 was 2.20 GB

When I added them to VRD-TVS and selected "Create DVD", VRD-TVS reported that the resulting DVD would be 4.88 GB, thus requiring re-encoding or a dual-layer DVD.

I selected "dual layer" DVD to avoid any re-encoding and allowed VRD-TVS to make the DVD files.

The finished size of the DVD files were actually 4.27GB, which is 0.61GB less than what VRD-TVS originally estimated, and thus didn't require re-encoding to fit on a single layer DVD.

So, in future I will use the "dual layer" settings to ensure that VRD-TVS does not attempt to re-encode files that will easily fit on a single layer DVD .... ;)

[DanR]

The sizing calculation takes the source file sizes, then estimates how much is being removed by your edits. I assume in this case none, and then adds back 85 MB for menuing (probably aggressive) and 200 MB MB for slush. The reason for the 200 MB is that with variable rate material we can only estimate the output file size after editing.

There are also 3 different definitions of GB running around:
1) 1 GB = 1,000,000,000 bytes
2) 1 GB = 1,048,576,000 bytes = 1,000 * 1024 * 1024
3) 1 GB = 1,073,741,824 bytes = 1,024 * 1,024 * 1,024

I'll ask DanH to comment further on the sizing.

[Taipan]

then estimates how much is being removed by your edits. I assume in this case none
That's correct, there were no edits.


and then adds back 85 MB for menuing (probably aggressive) and 200 MB for slush.
That's an extra 285 MB, but I am seeing a difference of more than 600MB ....


There are also 3 different definitions of GB running around:
1) 1 GB = 1,000,000,000 bytes
2) 1 GB = 1,048,576,000 bytes = 1,000 * 1024 * 1024
3) 1 GB = 1,073,741,824 bytes = 1,024 * 1,024 * 1,024

I am using definition 3) in my example, so I assume that VRD-TVS also uses definition 3), otherwise the difference would be even greater.


I'll ask DanH to comment further on the sizing.

Yes, I would be interested to see his comment, as I still believe that VRD-TVS is significantly over-estimating the amount of space required. I have made 4 different DVDs with VRD-TVS so far, and each one was significantly over-estimated.

Otherwise, the VRD-TVS is great ... :D