Looking for a New TV Tuner Card

[Jim Elliott]

I'm looking to buy a new TV tuner card, and I need your help finding the right one. I want one that will allow me to record both HDTV and analog, as, of course, analog will soon go the way of the dinosaur. I'd also like it to have the option of connecting to a VCR, so I can transfer some old VHS tapes to DVD. Finally, I'd also like it to support closed captioning. Any recommendations on tuner cards that meet all that criteria? Thanks.

[phd]

Internal or external?

PCI, PCIe, or AGP?

[Jim Elliott]

PCI or external USB.

[monster265]

I have a Hauppauge PVR-250. Great product for NSTC analog cable and Composte Video cature with on board hardware MPEG-2 encoding (no impact on PC CPU/Memory resources). No experience with this manufacture wrt HDTV products.

Videohelp.com has quite a list of capture cards.
http://www.videohelp.com/capturecards

My co-workers have recommended to me the MYHD MDP-130, which does have DVI output capability.

http://www.videohelp.com/capturecards/myhd-mdp-130/587
http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/mdp130.asp

When capturing VHS over composite cable connection the audio levels can be hot, I have found these attenators online, but have not purchased them.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=266-234

[zaphod7501]

I have two Hauppauge PVR250s, an HVR1600 and a My-HD MDP-130.

The MY-HD is an excellent ATSC tuner/capture card with a hardware decoder for playback on a HDTV but it is pretty much worthless as a line input capture card. Viewing analog stations is OK, just don't try to record them. There are some limitations when operating multi-core/multi-CPU setups. It can upscale standard mpegs to 720p/1080i if desired. (as well as some PC resolutions)

The PVR250 is a good capture card and analog tuner with a hardware encoder that can create standard, DVD compatible, mpeg files with selectable bitrates and resolutions. It has been superceded by the PVR150 which comes with a "blaster" for controlling set-top-boxes. Both will be great for analog cable and converter box recording.

The HVR-1600 is a dual tuner (NTSC and ATSC) card. You need to use third party software to operate both tuners simultaneously. The analog side uses the same basic encoder as the 150 for analog tuner and line input capture. The drivers are a bit buggy and it is not oficially supported by Windows 2000.

The HDHomerun is a dual ATSC/QAM tuner that is network connected (LAN), no analog at all. An external device, it does not take up any slots.

There are some USB tuners, with and without hardware encoders. The common problem with USB is the failure to initialize coming out of standby or at startup. Not a problem if you are standing there but a problem for timer recordings. Even USB 2.0 can have issues with high datarate streams.

The Hauppauge cards should be fine for capturing analog now, analog cable for a while (they are going digital also - QAM), and input capture from VCR/Camcorder/Set-Top-Boxes. With the current trend to DRM and encryption, you will find it very difficult to capture HD from any source other than OTA. The hardware encoder capture will produce DVD quality mpegs. IMHO, this will be the only practical archive method for content in the future.

I would suggest two devices, one for analog and one for digital. I would operate them with either native or third party software. Windows Media Center (MCE) will impose DRM and restrictions on files that may make archiving (and sometimes recording) impossible.

[Jim Elliott]

The HVR-1600 looks to be the best choice for what I do. Does it support closed captions on final DVDs I create with VideoRedo TVSuite? Thanks.

[phd]

TVSuite does not currently support closed captions on DVD creation if the video needs to be reencoded.

[Jim Elliott]

It looks like Hauppauge is not the right choice after all. According to Hauppauge, their devices do not support closed captioning unless using Media Center.


Hi Jim.



Only under Media Center do our products support closed captioning and can you also record the closed captioning in MS proprietary file format.



Regards,

Dorothy

Have any of you had any expereience with AverMedia products? I'm now looking at those.

[zaphod7501]

Hauppauge makes nice hardware but has been leaving advanced software to third parties. Most serious users ditch the Hauppauge software immediately. I don't even install it anymore, just the drivers. You might want to check out the forums for the alternative programs - GB-PVR, Sage, BeyondTV, MediaPortal, etc - for CC options. Since Hauppauge only has "official" connections with Microsoft (for certified drivers) that's the only third party software they have "knowledge" of.

If you read Hauppauge's response carefully, the hardware supports CC but their software does not.

Even with other cards, most advanced users select third party software. Some devices don't even have application software, just drivers and setup programs, and rely completely on third party applications. Media Center is probably the most restrictive software and your future recording capabilities can be severely restricted if you use it. Even if you went the Avermedia route, you will still probably be researching those other software applications.

Here's a link to some CC info for GB-PVR http://forums.gbpvr.com/showthread.php?t=27192

[Jim Elliott]

Thanks for the link. I'm going to buy a Hauppauge HVR-1600. How easy is it to install the card? Is it just a matter of opening your CPU and sticking it in an open PCI slot?

[Jim Elliott]

Gentlemen,

I bought the Hauppauge 1600 about an hour ago. I'm setting it up now, and I am VERY happy to report that I got the closed captions to appear on my TV after creating a DVD from video taken from the 1600 and edited with TVSuite. What I was after was to get the closed captions to appear on the TV, and I have achieved that with your help, so I am very grateful for your recommendation of the Hauppauge HVR-1600. I appreciate it.

http://premium1.uploadit.org/JimBarbasol//captions.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/JimBarbasol//JimsVideo-CaptureCard.jpg

Thanks again for your advice. I have a couple more questions. Firstly, how do I hook up the 1600 to my VCR? I plugged the yellow composite cable into the yellow adapter on the back of the unit, but there is only one more hole. Do I plug in the red or the white cord? What do I do to have the VHS appear on my monitor for recording? Which settings do I use in WinTV? Also, I have one final question. When I try to play back the DVD I made in Windows Media Player or Real Player, I get video, but no audio. Any ideas as to why? It plays fine in WinDVD, however, and of course, it plays well on my DVD player.
Jim

[zaphod7501]

You should have gotten an audio cable with two RCA plugs on one end and a miniature phone jack on the other for the audio. There have been some MCE versions that have different jacks but this should be the layout. http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr1600.html

I don't use WinTV anymore but I think you have to set up a channel for the composite (and S-Video) inputs in order to set timer recordings on those inputs. I think you can manually select those inputs with a small green button between the "channel up" and "channel down" buttons.

DVD audio playback problems are usually a codec problem. Does your DVD have AC-3 or mpeg audio? (I don't use Windows Media Player either so I can't be sure if it is looking for AC-3 and getting mpeg, or vice versa)

[Jim Elliott]

Are these the cables? As for the DVD audio question, I don't know what the audio is (How do I find out?), but on the file I used to create the DVD, it said the audio was HCW Layer II Audio Decoder.

http://premium1.uploadit.org/JimBarbasol//DSC01842.jpg

[zaphod7501]

Hard to tell from that pic. If there is only one assembly in the bag then that is the remote and IR Blaster. The audio will be a slightly larger jack with red and white RCA plugs on the other end. I had a beta version of the card and didn't get any cables but did get the audio breakout cable with my other PVR cards.

Looking at the product description closely, it does not mention audio or video cables --- odd, but that is what is needed.

[Jim Elliott]

Are you referring to this HVR-1600 model?

http://www.hauppauge.com/images/hvr1600_mce_big.jpg

Mine lacks the red and white jacks on the back. Below is what my card looks like from the back.

http://www.hauppauge.com/images/hvr1600_back_panel.jpg

In the box, I got an adapter plug that fits over the S-video in jack. It basically turns the jack into a yellow composite video jack. So, I plugged the yellow end of an old RCA cable I had into that, and I plugged the red end into audio in. But, the red end was so loose in the audio in jack that you couldn't get audio unless you physically held the plug in place. Are there any plugs that would fit in there more snugly?

[zaphod7501]

Hauppauge has nasty habit of releasing different versions of a card with the same model number as they make production revisions. The upper card you show is a MCE version with an FM radio (third coax connector). The bottom is the current offering. (mine is different from both) I have two PVR250s that have different jack connections.

The audio cable you need is like this. http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?product_id=24-655&catalog_name=MCMProducts
I have lots of them since they tended to come with portabe CD players, tuner cards, PC audio cards, portable cassette players, etc.

[Jim Elliott]

Thanks for the reply, my friend. I think I'll order one of those cables.

[zaphod7501]

If you know anyone who has been upgrading their own PCs for a while, you might find they have some extras. You should also be able to find them at most Retailers that sell any portable audio products. I just used the MCM link since it had a picture. I've even seen them at Menards and Home Depot as well as drug stores and K-Mart, not to mention the Big-Box stores.

[Jim Elliott]

Thanks. I'll try and find the cable today.

Edit: I bought a cable today at Circuit City, and have hooked up my VCR to the HVR-1600. It works very well. Thank you, zaphod7501, for letting me know which cable I need. Much appreciated. :)

[Jim Elliott]

As for the DVD audio problem, I had hoped that the problem was limited to my computer. Well, I gave the DVD to a friend and he tried playing it with Windows Media Player and it also didn't play the audio. According to a program I tried called GSpot, the DVD audio is MPEG-1 Layer 2. How do I change it to allow play in Windows Media Player?

[zaphod7501]

You can copy the VOB from the DVD and open it in VideoReDo or TVSuite. If you select Ctrl-L it will tell you the properties of the file, including the audio.

[Jim Elliott]

File Name: C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\My Documents\VTS_01_1.VOB
File Size: 1048643584 ( 0.98 GB )
Program Duration: 00:02:58.16
File Type: PS - MPEG2
Encoding: MPEG 2
Video stream Id: xE0
Encoding Dimensions: 720 x 480
Display Size: 720 x 480
Aspect Ratio: 4/3
Frame Rate: 29.97 FPS
Bit Rate: 6.200 Mbps
VBV_Buffer: 224 KB
Profile: Main/Main
Progressive: Prog or Int
Chroma: 4:2:0
Audio Format: Layer 2
Audio Stream Id: xC0
Audio Bit Rate: 384 Kbps
Audio Sampling Rate: 48000 Hz

[Jim Elliott]

The specs below were from a DVD I burned a couple of minutes ago. I changed the audio to AC3 in TVSuite, and still no audio in Windows Media Player.

File Name: E:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.VOB
File Size: 62470144 ( 0.06 GB )
Program Duration: 00:01:34.02
File Type: PS - MPEG2
Encoding: MPEG 2
Video stream Id: xE0
Encoding Dimensions: 720 x 480
Display Size: 720 x 480
Aspect Ratio: 4/3
Frame Rate: 29.97 FPS
Bit Rate: 6.200 Mbps
VBV_Buffer: 224 KB
Profile: Main/Main
Progressive: Prog or Int
Chroma: 4:2:0
Audio Format: Layer 2
Audio Stream Id: xC0
Audio Bit Rate: 384 Kbps
Audio Sampling Rate: 48000 Hz

[zaphod7501]

There are some things that won't play a DVD with mpeg audio. I have a MyHD card in one PC and a DVD must have AC-3 for it to play with sound. It will play mpeg files with mpeg audio, just not when they are in the DVD format.

You might change the file extension of that vob to .mpg and see if Media Player will play the file properly.

I don't think you can change to AC-3 in TVS. You can change from AC-3 to mpeg but not vice-versa - yet (you may have changed the headers or the menu but not the file). The VOBs you checked both have mpeg audio. The only way TVS can create a DVD with AC-3 audio is if the original recording is AC-3. Something recorded with the ATSC tuner can end up with AC-3 but the analog tuner only records mpeg audio.

Sorting out Windows Media Player and DVDs with mpeg audio will probably require someone that uses it. I use Media Player Classic and Hollywood Plus cards, although I rarely play DVDs on the PC.

[Jim Elliott]

I changed the extension of the VOB file to mpeg and it plays in Windows Media Player. The files are always able to play in Windows Media Player. It's when I make a DVD from them that I run into problems. Can most standalone DVD players handle mpeg audio?

[zaphod7501]

Can most standalone DVD players handle mpeg audio?
Yes, almost all of them. There have been exceptions but few.

[Jim Elliott]

Here's an update. I have solved the DVD problem I've been having of not being able to play store-bought DVDs in Windows Media Player and not being able to play sound on DVDs created using the Hauppauge HVR-1600. As I suspected, the culprit was the HCW audio and video decoders Hauppauge installs when installing the WinTV program.

I was afraid I would have to format my hard drive to remove these pesky HCW decoders, but thankfully that was not the case. Here's what I did. I downloaded a program called DirectShow Filter Manager from http://www.softella.com/dsfm/index.en.htm and removed all the HCW decoders listed. I rebooted my computer, went into Windows Media Player, went to tools, options, DVD, and advanced, and the InterVideo decoders were listed again. I played a store-bought DVD, and it worked perfectly. I played a DVD from a file made with the HVR-1600, and it worked perfectly, also.

The only problem is since I removed the HCW decoders, WinTV no longer functions, which doesn't exactly surprise me. I am going to switch to GB-PVR exclusively now.

One question. When I play an MPEG file taken from the HVR-1600 in Windows Media Player, a properties check lists the resolution at 640 x 480. I know the true resolution is 720 x 480 because I did a CTRL L in TVSuite and it's listed at 720 x 480. Similarly, a DVD's properties are 720 x 540. Is there any way to have WMP show the video at its true resolution? Thanks.

[neumannu47]

I, too, am looking for a new tuner card. My ReplayTVs are getting too old for my tastes. Some programs that I downloaded from one of my two RTVs has a problem with TDA authoring. They have to be QSF'd before they will burn to DVD.

So, what HD PCI card for PC in US should I buy? My present card is an Avermedia 1500. Sometimes VRD doesn't like the files it makes.

I have searched the board, but I have not found a definitive answer: Can VRD to a batch operation to QSF a bunch of files? There seem to be VBS and CMD files to do the job, but I was hoping for something a little less primitive.

Is anyone else here having trouble with ReplayTV files? Things have worked great until now except that I always edit the file before burning to DVD, so VRD cleans them up.

Final question: Can I mix a "Standard" quality video file on a DVD with a "Medium" quality file? They have different bit rates.